Richard59
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RIP, I don't have the words to do justice to the mans achievements,
Nelson Mandela
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Rip Madiba.
You did a great job...even though we were Capella ..!
You did a great job...even though we were Capella ..!
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Yes Rich.....a great deal of people over here in UK had absolutely no idea what has has done for Africa..... or what type of person he was. No doubt stupid comments or jokes will follow....but that will only be from those who are not awake to World politics......true story..!
RobertBeard
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The long walk to freedom says it all!
Nicola, just because someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean they are uneducated or unaware of world politics, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and that is a true story. You are entitled to your opinion and so are others... Just saying
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MM....not sure i understand the outburst after posting 'my' comment. I did not address you and i did not mention uneducated either ...so I am not sure what point you are making??
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You do not know what my opinions on this subject are....so how can you accuse me of anything. You are being silly.
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I think you jumped a bit to soon this time.MM
Can we forget the past because of the good which was done later in life? Personally I can't, the man was single handedly responsible for arming the ANC! I think of it this way will Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness be afforded the same level of respect when they pass away?
We can't sit here and say he had to do what he had to do An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind!
We can't sit here and say he had to do what he had to do An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind!
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He prevented civil war in South Africa.
However each to their own opinion 'educated or not'.......or 'bigoted or not'.....or 'political or not'.......'coloured or not'.......!
I am sure their are many people who were / are for apartheid .....however the World has moved on.
Madiba was for a 'just and fair society' for everyone.....not just black or white.
You know what......I think I will stick to my own opinions.....which are shared by far more people on this earth.....as as already been shown....if you were to turn on the news and 'actually' listened to what he did......or if like me....you spent time out there......you would know clearly what he did and what he stopped.
However each to their own opinion 'educated or not'.......or 'bigoted or not'.....or 'political or not'.......'coloured or not'.......!
I am sure their are many people who were / are for apartheid .....however the World has moved on.
Madiba was for a 'just and fair society' for everyone.....not just black or white.
You know what......I think I will stick to my own opinions.....which are shared by far more people on this earth.....as as already been shown....if you were to turn on the news and 'actually' listened to what he did......or if like me....you spent time out there......you would know clearly what he did and what he stopped.
Lock Stock & Barrel
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I suspect the majority of white South Africans, certainly under Apartheid, considered Mandela a 'terrorist' - rather in the same way the occupying Nazis considered the French Resistance, the Maquis, terrorists during WW2. And whilst throw-away platitudes like, "one man's freedom-fighter is another man's terrorist" might settle the minds of those using them, they are, when taken in consideration, trite, empty and meaningless, and don't progress the discussion any.
By way of hypothetical example, had Herr Hitler been successful in invading and occupying these shores after the recent unpleasantness, both appeasers and collaborators would, I suspect, have been treated just as unforgivingly here as they were in post-War France. That, and I suspect the British people would have done what Churchill famously stated ("we shall fight them on the beaches..."), where the Germans would have found themselves in a 360-degree guerilla war, and the British people largely ungovernable. And I think we can agree that that would have required violence on a grand scale on our part.
Ever since the Norman Conquest of 1066, these islands and their peoples have not known what it is to be truly oppressed by a brutal, dictatorial regime which, by statute law, has made your very race inferior and only fit for subjugation. Mandela [who was, at this stage, a lawyer, and hence recognised unjust laws when he saw them] did know, all too well, and decided that enough was enough and opted to take up arms in the same way that we, as a people, would have done under any ensuing Nazi occupation - and it would be a fool who might suggest that the British people might have gone quietly into that good night without exacting murderous acts against any occupying force. Such was the situation in which Mandela, and the ANC, found themselves. Violence might be regrettable and (in calmer, more democratic times) hopefully avoidable; but there are times when only it will do, if you seek not to live under the yoke of racial [or any other form of] subjugation.
As for Messrs Adams and McGuinness: whilst these two are, without doubt, personally responsible for a slew of atrocious acts in the recent past, we are obliged to see these past acts for what they are - rungs on a ladder which has now led to a multi-party democracy taking root in Northern Ireland (or the north of Ireland, depending on your political bent); although that is not to detract from the nature of their previous crimes. In the aftermath of all wars, we must seek compromise: and The Good Friday Agreement was just such a compromise. It doesn't suit everyone, but it is better than the previous alternative. Any reasonable person would rather have them involved in the mechanisms of a plural democracy (i.e. the ballot box rather than the Armalite), as they are now, than still organising armed resistance/terrorism. As Churchill reminds us: "jaw jaw is better than war war".
It's also worth reminding ourselves that Mandela made it a staple of his post-incarceration, and latterly his presidential, years to seek reconciliation and forgiveness: when the broader part of his ANC wanted, for example, to prevent the whites from playing Rugby (the one sport which every whiteman in South Africa held in the highest regard), and if not prevent, then ensure that they could not use the Apartheid-era name, The Springboks. Mandela refused, as he knew that would just throw fuel on the fire and give the AWB whites just another reason to set themselves up for a civil war. He famously wore the Springboks' captain's, Francois Pienaar's, number 6 jersey at the Rugby World Cup final against the All Blacks in 1995 - that act alone accorded South Africa a large element of healing past hatreds. Prior to that, South African blacks had, routinely, supported any other team playing the Springboks. After that, all South Africans supported the 'Boks.
In truth, we can debate Mandela's legacy all day, but his country and its people are, by and large, far better off under the plural democracy which he instilled than they ever were under Apartheid. We also have to agree that no democracy is perfect but, as Churchill again reminds us, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
By way of hypothetical example, had Herr Hitler been successful in invading and occupying these shores after the recent unpleasantness, both appeasers and collaborators would, I suspect, have been treated just as unforgivingly here as they were in post-War France. That, and I suspect the British people would have done what Churchill famously stated ("we shall fight them on the beaches..."), where the Germans would have found themselves in a 360-degree guerilla war, and the British people largely ungovernable. And I think we can agree that that would have required violence on a grand scale on our part.
Ever since the Norman Conquest of 1066, these islands and their peoples have not known what it is to be truly oppressed by a brutal, dictatorial regime which, by statute law, has made your very race inferior and only fit for subjugation. Mandela [who was, at this stage, a lawyer, and hence recognised unjust laws when he saw them] did know, all too well, and decided that enough was enough and opted to take up arms in the same way that we, as a people, would have done under any ensuing Nazi occupation - and it would be a fool who might suggest that the British people might have gone quietly into that good night without exacting murderous acts against any occupying force. Such was the situation in which Mandela, and the ANC, found themselves. Violence might be regrettable and (in calmer, more democratic times) hopefully avoidable; but there are times when only it will do, if you seek not to live under the yoke of racial [or any other form of] subjugation.
As for Messrs Adams and McGuinness: whilst these two are, without doubt, personally responsible for a slew of atrocious acts in the recent past, we are obliged to see these past acts for what they are - rungs on a ladder which has now led to a multi-party democracy taking root in Northern Ireland (or the north of Ireland, depending on your political bent); although that is not to detract from the nature of their previous crimes. In the aftermath of all wars, we must seek compromise: and The Good Friday Agreement was just such a compromise. It doesn't suit everyone, but it is better than the previous alternative. Any reasonable person would rather have them involved in the mechanisms of a plural democracy (i.e. the ballot box rather than the Armalite), as they are now, than still organising armed resistance/terrorism. As Churchill reminds us: "jaw jaw is better than war war".
It's also worth reminding ourselves that Mandela made it a staple of his post-incarceration, and latterly his presidential, years to seek reconciliation and forgiveness: when the broader part of his ANC wanted, for example, to prevent the whites from playing Rugby (the one sport which every whiteman in South Africa held in the highest regard), and if not prevent, then ensure that they could not use the Apartheid-era name, The Springboks. Mandela refused, as he knew that would just throw fuel on the fire and give the AWB whites just another reason to set themselves up for a civil war. He famously wore the Springboks' captain's, Francois Pienaar's, number 6 jersey at the Rugby World Cup final against the All Blacks in 1995 - that act alone accorded South Africa a large element of healing past hatreds. Prior to that, South African blacks had, routinely, supported any other team playing the Springboks. After that, all South Africans supported the 'Boks.
In truth, we can debate Mandela's legacy all day, but his country and its people are, by and large, far better off under the plural democracy which he instilled than they ever were under Apartheid. We also have to agree that no democracy is perfect but, as Churchill again reminds us, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
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Hotshot100
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Like many others who became great statesmen he started off life as a terrorist/freedom fighter.
What one person's opinion sees as greatness another's sees as the opposite. Did not the Boers place a bounty on Winston Churchill??
Brilliant post Lock,Stock and Barrel.
What one person's opinion sees as greatness another's sees as the opposite. Did not the Boers place a bounty on Winston Churchill??
Brilliant post Lock,Stock and Barrel.
Lock Stock & Barrel
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It's also perhaps worth remembering that, along with being sentenced to hang in absentia, Mandela did time for his crimes, so it's not as if he got off scott-free for any violence he might have committed.
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teepee1234
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One of the true greats of our time. RIP.
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Brilliant post Bren..!!
Wonko the Sane
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a couple opinions from a differing POV
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/15888-saint-mandela-not-so-fast
When people say something about how Mandela and his killers did what they had to do I always get this vision of Gandhi saying WTF?
Of course the economic revival of SA as a result of his beneficence is instantly obvious to one and all
But I wasn't there so I really don't know what actually happend
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/15888-saint-mandela-not-so-fast
When people say something about how Mandela and his killers did what they had to do I always get this vision of Gandhi saying WTF?
Of course the economic revival of SA as a result of his beneficence is instantly obvious to one and all
But I wasn't there so I really don't know what actually happend
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Lock Stock & Barrel
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Although, even citing the examples you do (and to be fair, their sources are of unknown and I suspect questionable provenance; that, and it would be a fool who insisted Wikipedia is anything like a 'reliable source'), any alleged crimes the blogger, 'Back Bencher', might offer up pale when compared to the actual crimes perpetrated by those of all US presidents since Eisenhower.
