Junior Investment - Is it worthwhile?

[RobertBeard]

If mine's anything to go by you've got about ten years before he's keen to do stuff with you again other than day to day family stuff.  He's presumably got to get married, have kids etc yet!

 

[clayclouter]

he might emigrate with a bit of luck !! get married abroad to a woman of wealth, come back over here and give me enough money to keep me in the style I should like to grow accustomed to!!

 

[clayclouter]

self delusion has always been a weakness !

 

[Angelfire]

I fully agree with the OP

I very good friend of mine spent an absolute frotune on his son in the 80s he started at about 12 and was beating many of us at DTL by the age of 13 he progressed to shoot for GB at OT and travelled abroad many times, he was a fantastic shooter and destined for very good things. Dad even bought him an SO4 when he was about 15 (allright for some) anyway by the time he was 18 he had met girls and drink and clubs and gave up, never touched a gun since as far as I know. What a waste of money for the dad who put his own shooting carreer on hold to some degree.

Now the point is this, its all well and good for a father too choose to spend loads of money on sons or daughters but do we really want to spend CPSA members money on it, I am particularily thinking about the recent posts about CPSA spending money unwiseley here, so be interesting to get some responce form members who voiced concerns over the spending of "members" money ??  

Very very true, the lure of ale and the female form has ended many a good young shooters interest in the sport.

Phil*

 

[John Green]

I've read all the threads and angles above and some interesting views have been noted. We (our family) are by no means well off as a family but are doing all we can to help our son to shoot and persue his dreams of being a county and maybe regional / National shooting champion.(His goals) There is no way we can financially support some of the scenarios previously stated and to be honest it does look like GB / England places can only be financially sustained by those from a privilaged or fortunate financial position. It is hard and requires a lot of committment as a parent but I have to make it very clear that no matter what it has cost us so far in terms of cash and time, the sense of Pride as a parent for your son/daughters solo achievements is what makes life worth living. Its simply amazing to see as the skill and passion to win pay off for them and best of all, its of their own making, not yours.... Yes it would be good to get help but many companies won't or can't assist. Personally, I haven't shot for 2 years now as I simply can't afford for both of us to shooot, I also get far more reward from watching my son shoot. Some of you will understand this, others will not and that's OK, Should our son find "crumpet and booze" in a few years time like most of us have then we shall always remember what a great sport this is and all the good people and friends we have met.

With regards to CPSA funding, we have never thought of seeking their assistance and won't as we don't believe they would assist in any case but I will leave the governing bodies with one question though. They all preach "young shots" I see lots of introduction days but they dont seem to do anything to maintain this in terms of post introduction, why not a colt academy!! Now that would be an investment in the sport and could also be a feeder to olympic disciplines.

 

[Salopian]

Berrettaboysdad,

Lets think about your last paragraph for a moment.

I have been involve in Young Shots since its inception, started years ago with Trevor Scott with sponsorship from Holland & Holland and did education days for youngsters at H&H, Sealand, Mid Wales, Treetops, Beverley, North Ayrshire etc. etc, all at my own cost.

Then with BASC & CPSA, still doing it.

But it costs you the parents a reasonable sum for these Young Shots days for what?

An attendance day and good PR for the organisations, yes a complete novice will enjoy themselves, learn gun safety and have a nice day socialising, but I seriously doubt your son will now learn a thing, in fact I would venture to say that your son may well teach his coach a thing or two.

Your money would be better spent having your son have a 1 to 1 with a GOOD Coach for an hour.

What most people do not realise is that the cost of the day at these young shot days goes to the organisation, the coaches give their time free of charge ( I do) the grounds give the use of the ground and clays FOC and very often the cartridges are sponsored.

It is about time, we the clay shooting fraternity started a scholarship scheme and gave deserving youngsters assistance.

Seeing a shooting association executive giving a speech at a free lunch does nothing for me.

Whilst we are on the subject, it is the annual round of dinners and awards soon at Churchill's and RBSS, George has received his recognitions, Ian Coley, Peter Wilson, Richard Faulds, Amber Hill, etc., have all received theirs and deservedly so.

But what about Brian Jardine?

Never heard of him?

He is Mr. Promatic and his loyal sidekick Ian Petrie, two men who have single handedly taken British Manufacturing and British clayshooting into World wide recognition as World Beaters.

How about recognising Brian Jardine, Ian Petrie and Promatic for all they have done for us.

 

[John Green]

Berrettaboysdad,

Lets think about your last paragraph for a moment.

I have been involve in Young Shots since its inception, started years ago with Trevor Scott with sponsorship from Holland & Holland and did education days for youngsters at H&H, Sealand, Mid Wales, Treetops, Beverley, North Ayrshire etc. etc, all at my own cost.

Then with BASC & CPSA, still doing it.

But it costs you the parents a reasonable sum for these Young Shots days for what?

An attendance day and good PR for the organisations, yes a complete novice will enjoy themselves, learn gun safety and have a nice day socialising, but I seriously doubt your son will now learn a thing, in fact I would venture to say that your son may well teach his coach a thing or two.

Your money would be better spent having your son have a 1 to 1 with a GOOD Coach for an hour.

What most people do not realise is that the cost of the day at these young shot days goes to the organisation, the coaches give their time free of charge ( I do) the grounds give the use of the ground and clays FOC and very often the cartridges are sponsored.

It is about time, we the clay shooting fraternity started a scholarship scheme and gave deserving youngsters assistance.

Seeing a shooting association executive giving a speech at a free lunch does nothing for me.

Whilst we are on the subject, it is the annual round of dinners and awards soon at Churchill's and RBSS, George has received his recognitions, Ian Coley, Peter Wilson, Richard Faulds, Amber Hill, etc., have all received theirs and deservedly so.

But what about Brian Jardine?

Never heard of him?

He is Mr. Promatic and his loyal sidekick Ian Petrie, two men who have single handedly taken British Manufacturing and British clayshooting into World wide recognition as World Beaters.

How about recognising Brian Jardine, Ian Petrie and Promatic for all they have done for us.

Agreed on the young shots days. I have looked into this on a few occasions, they are expensive and as a capable shooter it would possibly be boring which brings me back to the on going maintenance and support post introduction. The point may have been missed by the CPSA / Manufacturer's that its not all about financial support or plying kids with cartridges. Advice and mentoring also play part in the development of any sport or profession and I can see no sign of this at present. Sometimes this is all that's needed.

Many people are looking for assistance with cartridge costs as this is a high cost item but this is a corporate investment and I see there are many views and beliefs on what should or should not be done with investment in youth shooting but any investment will always to be carefully reviewed.against ability, parental support and the child's passion / will to win, its a given that no company will simply give financial assistance to "just shoot" without a possibility of return by winning or perseverance and commitment  so its completely understandable that they will look at these factors and others before giving any assistance as will the unsung heroes of the sport, the Ground Owners.. . and as you pointed out "Promatic" who I am aware do a great deal to invest in the sport and its future without being thanked.

With the unsung heroes it has to be said that my son shoots a number of grounds that are trying to assist him by way of entry fees, sometimes there is a token range fee and other times his entrance is completely F.O.C. Each time we visit I expect to pay but these ground owners are genuinely interested in seeing him progress and gain confidence, checking his scores, talking to him about the shoot and offering much encouragement to the lad. This is what I would call true investment on their part and I am very grateful for this as his parent.

I think what needs to be clarified and indeed separated from the discussion is there are many, many children who just love to shoot either on their own or with a parent and some will show high levels of promise but may have no ambition to compete or achieve this is a parental choice and the cost of this as a past time is down to you...........the question should be, are the CPSA scouting / spotting /talking to ground owners about potential talent and then seeking to find and assist those that do want to achieve and compete by using the CPSA's vast network in the sport and industry to provide guidance and assistance. As an administrative organisation this would be something I would expect them to be doing as a day to day task and maybe they are albeit I see no sign of it.

I know from discussion that Mr Phil Coley is championing the gap in grass roots competitive shooting by developing a scholarship and young shots academy and this is commendable and a visionary step forward, there are details on his website and  maybe others will follow in his footsteps. 

It would be good to see  the "Gamebore / Eley / Express / Hull"  shooting academies  competing against each other at some point.

Regards,

John

 

[ips]

Not wishing to be confrontational but there are many many adult shooters who show real promise but i dont hear of ground owners giving them freebies.

Just an observation not meant as a personal attack on you or your lad.

 

[John Green]

Not wishing to be confrontational but there are many many adult shooters who show real promise but i dont hear of ground owners giving them freebies.

Just an observation not meant as a personal attack on you or your lad.

Adult Shooting is not my call as you'll see from my profile.... not confrontational at all although this is a departure from the young shots topic which my response referred to. 

Lets face it, most people would like to shoot for free but that's not going to happen, at the end of the day its business and the ground owners need to make a living, if they decide to make concessions then that's their personal choice..

Letting kids shoot free has come from the "kids shoot free" program  and some grounds see this as an investment in the future and that's brilliant and commendable but why would a ground owner let an adult shoot free when they drive a decent car and hold an expensive gun?? I wouldn't no matter how good they are, would you? 

To preach the obvious....if you want something enough you make sacrifice to get it.  so Id question your comment in that adults generally have jobs and are for want of a better phrase are "Self funding" in terms of shooting,  Should they be passionate about excelling and have ability then they need to put their hand in there pocket and commit to a higher level financially?? put yourself out and attend major, county and country selection shoots, visit grounds where top coaches work. if you don't go you'll never know!!! and if you are good enough I'm sure it will be seen.

Back to the topic, as I understand it ins't so much about the introduction of young shots or indeed "FREE SHOOTING" but taking those who have already shown commitment  ambition and ability to the next level and to do this they need professional assistance. where does it come from. my feeling is that the CPSA should play part in this. its  No good giving a kid or adult 10,000 cartridges to just shoot in the air! they need guidance, coaching and confidence.

regards, John

 

[ips]

John

For the record i have shot many many majors and county shoots and also represented north of England a few times over the last 26 yrs and done well in a few. Point being that i am not some newbie jealous of achievement or recognition i just find it hard for reasons eluded to in other posts to understand why juniors or indeed women should be singled out for financial assistance. Surely thats our job as fathers certainly has been for me, and still is and mini ips lives and works away and still costs me a fortune.

again i wish to point out that these are my personal and probably somewhat opinionated views and in no way aimed at you or yours.

Regards - Ian

 

[John Green]

No problem mate, I fully undersand and wish you and your family the very best for 2013. May even get to meet in the new year The bottom line is, there isn't much support in the support and until it moves the same way as Rugby and cricket then I don't believe much will happen generally. Shame as its a fantastic sport.in the meantime we can only do our best as parents. Best wishes, John

 

[ips]

cheers John

I wish you and your son a really good season. Sounds like he is destined to go a long way with or without financial support.

Ps. What a very pleasant debate, we may not entirely agree on some matters but we stayed polite and friendly. Me thinks all posts should be carried out in the same manner.

All the best my friend

Ian

 

[blaser f3]

 ips ,i can see where your coming from , as from my earlier post's it's obvious 99 per cent of my son's 'shooting career' has been funded  at a cost to my family and  myself and i don't regret (well almost) any of it (he has learnt a lot and not just about shooting but also many life skills).But i do think it would be a good thing for youngsters to have support from  the CPSA (an obvious choice) or some sort of government body and im not saying this should have to be in a monetary form .

What people should remember that in this country nearly all of our atheletes /footballers /rugby players would not be in the position they are now if they did not have the support /coaching etc. from their schools, local councils etc. (which we have all funded the same as the CPSA ) 

Many have talked about youngsters reaching a certain age and falling to the wayside after being lured by drink  and the attraction's of the opposite sex ,i think that is the way of life (a Yoda moment ) 

Unfortunately shooting is seen by most as a Dark Art . We will never have a vast number of youngsters coming through in this sport and i think those we have at present should be given as much support as  possible . Apart from the obvious which has been stated many times ,youngsters are the future of the sport (quite a few i times i have heard my son and daughter explain and defend the sport to youngsters /friends and adults ) Also as much as people say older people can take up the sport and be as good as the up and coming youngsters  I think (be it right or wrong ) it will always be the young bloods pushed to (hopefully) Olympic excellence and as such will be the future face of our sport , and in this day and age our sport needs as high a profile as possible if we are going to survive and keep the antis and ill informed at bay, so we will all be able to continue shooting in its many forms .    

 

[ips]

Blaser

Some very valid points i have to reluctantly admit.

I would however hate to see our sport go the same way as that truly awfull sport of footing ball. Over paid arrogant sorts they all seem to be. (told you i was opinionated )

i think i am old school in as much as i feel that true talent Will prevail if the shooter has the commitment and hunger to win regardless of age. I hope that our sport is not wholly reliant on the young or i am well out of the equation

 

[ips]

Oh and another thing, it is not neccasarily the case that any shooter needs teaching or mentoring in order to progress to the highest level. Many of us have never had any money or lessons and some of us have done ok. Some have even gone all the way with home made styles and old guns held together with bailing twine my point is that money, lessons etc are not the only way to achieve.

 

[John Green]

I have to leave it there, some good points raised, we just need the powers that be to take notice...how do we do this? Maybe another topic but until then, :appy new year to all, best wished annd shoot well in 2013. John

 

[John Green]

Apologies for the spelling, the vodka has kicked in and I'm off yout to celibrate..all the best

 

[ips]

Ha ha

have a great evening.

My input is now closed on the matter for the sake of good Will to all men and all that.

 

[blaser f3]

ips totally agree on the point about football ,and im in the same boat as you when it comes to an age thing , i agree on true talent will prevail but if we are to keep the face of our sport out there in the media (hopefully for all the right reason' i,e Peter Wilson) we need really to perform well on the world stage (in the case of the media this seems to be confined to Olympic success) and in this day an age this means investment i,e time and money into our Olympic hopefuls , although not always the case the most successful countries seem to be where the atheletes are virtually professional's   i,e their job is their sport  , as seen at this year,s Olympics you need winners to enthuse others to take up the sport ,the more the better......... Lottery money ...now theres a thought  .As weve seen in the last few year,s available money has not always  been spent wisely perhaps future candidates should been put under contract if money is to be invested  to prove ther dedication to the sport both on and off the field as they say. 

 

[blaser f3]

Im a slow typer so missed the last 2 post,s . The same to all shoot well and have a good 2012  Berrettaboysdad i might run into you at Dartford at the next FITSAC shoot as my son Louis work's there you cant miss him six foot plus and speaks in a series of unintelligble noises and grunts......says mate a lot  . .