Introduction and gun fit question
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bordergun
Well-known member
Of course Ben. A very good friend of mine and superb coach in the UK alerted me to your post and I'm interested to know why you would suggest closing it down? As you know the subject of gunfit is very confusing for some. The gunfit article I suggested the OP reading here is the result of many years fitting shotguns in the UK, 7 years as the pro. at one of the best shooting facilites in the US. and several years coaching Olympic shooters in 27 different countries. By reading it I was hoping it would help to cut through some of the alarming snake-oil we get on the Internet these days. And of course, the advice is free.
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The post u moved him to read is one of the worst I’ve seen.
unfortunately the site u mentioned falls at the bottom of the snake oil you talk about.
Gun fitting is indeed an art form and should be left to those that know. And currently shooting has gone through a huge change and old style gun fitting doesn’t work
bordergun
Well-known member
Of course, you are correct, I failed to see the OP was four years old. But I was asked to join a discussion and two of the posters asked the same question because they were confused about gunfit. Directing them to the gunfit article was the easiest way and most find it useful.
And I'm afraid I don't agree about what you say about old syle gunfitting. Why exactly doesn't it work? If you mean that most of todays "gunfitters" don't use a pattern plate, because if done properly (and most can't be bothered) it is "messy" and they prefer to fit the guns by getting their clients to wriggle their heads about. Sorry, but that proves absolutely nothing in terms of a proper fit or more importantly where the gun shoots. And it absolutely is pure snake-oil. And (pure speculation at this stage) if the pattern plate is what you are referring to I'm surprised. Because if you shoot a K 80 with a pro rib hanger system which is "off" slightly, how would you know?
And I'm afraid I don't agree about what you say about old syle gunfitting. Why exactly doesn't it work? If you mean that most of todays "gunfitters" don't use a pattern plate, because if done properly (and most can't be bothered) it is "messy" and they prefer to fit the guns by getting their clients to wriggle their heads about. Sorry, but that proves absolutely nothing in terms of a proper fit or more importantly where the gun shoots. And it absolutely is pure snake-oil. And (pure speculation at this stage) if the pattern plate is what you are referring to I'm surprised. Because if you shoot a K 80 with a pro rib hanger system which is "off" slightly, how would you know?
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Pattern plates are completely useless. It’s your right to not agree sir. That’s when people reading so the research and look at records and back grounds and choose who to believe moving forward
bordergun
Well-known member
Many coaches that tell their students "Pattern boards are completely useless" say that in ignorance because they haven't got a clue how to use them properly. But then they continue to feed their clients (with a badly fitted gun) snake-oil for long periods and suck them in for multiple lessons to fatten their wallets.
Sure, the pattern boards are messy, but if used properly, they can identify a multitude of sins, including gun mounting inconsistencies, non-concentric chokes and barrel hanger problems. And the pattern board will tell you exactly where your gun shoots without relying on voodoo or witchcraft.
BTW for those interested, a good pattern plate mixture is one part Titanium dioxide, (this is white paint pigment powder, very inexpensive) to 5 parts cooking oil. My own recipe. It looks exactly like paint, goes on with a roller, never dries, doesn't freeze or wash off. Splashes are easily removed with soap and water.
Sure, the pattern boards are messy, but if used properly, they can identify a multitude of sins, including gun mounting inconsistencies, non-concentric chokes and barrel hanger problems. And the pattern board will tell you exactly where your gun shoots without relying on voodoo or witchcraft.
BTW for those interested, a good pattern plate mixture is one part Titanium dioxide, (this is white paint pigment powder, very inexpensive) to 5 parts cooking oil. My own recipe. It looks exactly like paint, goes on with a roller, never dries, doesn't freeze or wash off. Splashes are easily removed with soap and water.
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No offence intended Mr Blakeley but Ben, who happens to be one of the best sporting shots in the world and one of the most respected coaches, is a valued contributor to this forum and has provided free advice on many occasions. Speaking for myself I would appreciate it if you would avoid arguing with him and implying that he's ignorant of how to use a pattern board. I would not like to see him leave the forum because of thinly veiled insults.
I expect Ben will answer for himself though a quick search on the forum will reveal a pattern (slight pun intended) of replies from him - "we don't shoot at pattern plates" and "why not shoot a simple going away target" to test gun mount etc. That doesn't mean he is saying pattern plates don't have any purpose - for checking chokes or gun setup but not necessarily for gun fit where 'real world' alternatives reveal just as much.
I don't agree with Ben that gun fit is a art. I think he undersells himself saying so. Like a lot of things when you get to his level of experience it seems like an art because so much information about the shooter is processed and understood quickly; that's real experience not art. It's also too easy to think, by reading a lot of books or articles etc, you can make up for that. You can't. Most of us on this forum are shooting as a hobby - its not our profession - so we discuss at that level and we need to do so otherwise its just no fun. As Westward says, occasionally someone who really knows will correct us and Ben is valued contributor in that respect.
I would say I don't know Ben. I shoot at Kibworth and we nod recognition in passing but we have not spoken. I've not been coached by him and I'm not sure he would be the right coach for me if I wanted one (I do need one !!!). He has a proven system to coach to a high level and I don't have the time or dedication to do that and I tend to laugh about it all too much. Kibworth is however the friendliest ground I know of - I value my membership there and the Team that run it are superb. Ben is well thought if there and that, along with my own experience of him, and the stuff he has posted here & there, gives him my respect when he chips in.
I don't agree with Ben that gun fit is a art. I think he undersells himself saying so. Like a lot of things when you get to his level of experience it seems like an art because so much information about the shooter is processed and understood quickly; that's real experience not art. It's also too easy to think, by reading a lot of books or articles etc, you can make up for that. You can't. Most of us on this forum are shooting as a hobby - its not our profession - so we discuss at that level and we need to do so otherwise its just no fun. As Westward says, occasionally someone who really knows will correct us and Ben is valued contributor in that respect.
I would say I don't know Ben. I shoot at Kibworth and we nod recognition in passing but we have not spoken. I've not been coached by him and I'm not sure he would be the right coach for me if I wanted one (I do need one !!!). He has a proven system to coach to a high level and I don't have the time or dedication to do that and I tend to laugh about it all too much. Kibworth is however the friendliest ground I know of - I value my membership there and the Team that run it are superb. Ben is well thought if there and that, along with my own experience of him, and the stuff he has posted here & there, gives him my respect when he chips in.
Luke_(NL)
Well-known member
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Came to say what @Westward and @Freddypip have said more eloquently. I don't always agree with Ben's posts and his replies can at times be terse, but he is certainly among the most (the most, I'd think) experienced shots here with accolades untold.
bordergun
Well-known member
Westward I sincerely apologize if you (or Ben) think my reply on here was a "thinly veiled insult", because it was not. I put advice re. gunfitting on here because two of the shooters I was in conversation with asked for it. Bens comment was;- "time to close the thread down" and that in his words "Pattern plates are useless." Both of which, IMO are not "thinly veiled insults." BTW I do know everything there is to know about all the top sporting clay shooters in the World including Ben. And I also give free advice based on over 40 years as a professional coach.
Many top sporting clay shooters get to the top because they are obviously good at what they do. Most of them then realize that because of that, they have a readily available audience who will pay them lots of money for shooting lessons and advice. Sometimes, it is good advice, but sometimes it isn't, because many of them cannot articulate accurately to others what they do. For that reason, I believe that all coaches should give a money back guarantee on results. If a client has no idea where his gun shoots, or his mount is suspect, how would he know without a pattern plate evaluation? But then again, if his coach can't explain lead in a logical way (which is I believe THE most important facet of becoming successful with a shotgun) gunfit would be inconsequential.
Many top sporting clay shooters get to the top because they are obviously good at what they do. Most of them then realize that because of that, they have a readily available audience who will pay them lots of money for shooting lessons and advice. Sometimes, it is good advice, but sometimes it isn't, because many of them cannot articulate accurately to others what they do. For that reason, I believe that all coaches should give a money back guarantee on results. If a client has no idea where his gun shoots, or his mount is suspect, how would he know without a pattern plate evaluation? But then again, if his coach can't explain lead in a logical way (which is I believe THE most important facet of becoming successful with a shotgun) gunfit would be inconsequential.
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bordergun
Well-known member
Westward. Here is a small handful of coaches that suggest a patternboard evaluation can be beneficial.
Bob Brister Shotgunning the Art and Science.
Chris Batha Breaking Clays.
Michael Yardley Gunfit, the Quest for Perfection.
Robert Churchill.
Cyril Adams, Lock, Stock and Barrel.
John Brindle Shotguns and Shooting.
Gough Thomas Garwood, Shooting facts and Fancies.
There are many, many more. Please don't get me wrong, free advice (if it is from a reliable source) can be very beneficial. I regularly dish out free advice and hand out free books. But largely as the result of the Intermess, sometimes the free advice can do more harm than good.
Bob Brister Shotgunning the Art and Science.
Chris Batha Breaking Clays.
Michael Yardley Gunfit, the Quest for Perfection.
Robert Churchill.
Cyril Adams, Lock, Stock and Barrel.
John Brindle Shotguns and Shooting.
Gough Thomas Garwood, Shooting facts and Fancies.
There are many, many more. Please don't get me wrong, free advice (if it is from a reliable source) can be very beneficial. I regularly dish out free advice and hand out free books. But largely as the result of the Intermess, sometimes the free advice can do more harm than good.
I have nothing against pattern boards. You miss my point entirely but hey, that's your privilege.
bordergun
Well-known member
Westward. I didn't miss your point. Ben said:- "Patternboards were useless" and many don't agree. You then went to suggest that he gives a lot of free advice on here. I merely pointed out that free advice is OK...providing it is correct.
The list above there isn’t one name on there that could take a student to become a serious competitive shot. A pattern plate give such false results and its only use is to check cartridge / choke combination.
The sport changes every 5 years and gun fitting has changed immensely over the last ten.agree totally that a good shot doesn’t make a good coach but the flip side is of your not a good shot your definitely a bad coach. We’re a if u can’t do it u can’t teach it sport.
Please next time stop me and come say hi. Yes I’ve coached numerous world champions and national champions but many beginners on their journey too. Maybe we see something quickly that can make a huge difference
bordergun
Well-known member
Ben. Thank you for your comments, they are appreciated. I would like to reply.
You say that quote:- "on the list there isn't one name that could take a student to become a serious competitive shot." Please note my name is not on the list.
You go on to say that":- "The sport changes every 5 years" Sorry, but I respectfully don't agree. I'm sure you agree that one of the most important things a shooter must do to become a "serious competitive shot" is to build up his repertoire of sight pictures that he knows to be correct? For that reason, the lead we need to see on a 50 yard crossing shot is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago. The lead requirement on a narrow angle shot is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago.
You say:- "I have coached numerous World Champions and many beginners on their journey too."
Since you have brought it up, so have I, including multitudes of Masterclass and several CURRENT US team members. Some of this is info. on my web. site. But more importantly, all of them use the Unit Lead system of applying lead at the muzzle and so now do many coaches here including Fowler and Materese.
RE your comment "If you're not a good shot, you're definitely a bad coach." I agree 100% . If you are ever in this area please give me a call. I will be honored to shoot a round of SC with you. We can even publish the outcome on here and have a modest side bet?
You say that quote:- "on the list there isn't one name that could take a student to become a serious competitive shot." Please note my name is not on the list.
You go on to say that":- "The sport changes every 5 years" Sorry, but I respectfully don't agree. I'm sure you agree that one of the most important things a shooter must do to become a "serious competitive shot" is to build up his repertoire of sight pictures that he knows to be correct? For that reason, the lead we need to see on a 50 yard crossing shot is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago. The lead requirement on a narrow angle shot is exactly the same as it was 100 years ago.
You say:- "I have coached numerous World Champions and many beginners on their journey too."
Since you have brought it up, so have I, including multitudes of Masterclass and several CURRENT US team members. Some of this is info. on my web. site. But more importantly, all of them use the Unit Lead system of applying lead at the muzzle and so now do many coaches here including Fowler and Materese.
RE your comment "If you're not a good shot, you're definitely a bad coach." I agree 100% . If you are ever in this area please give me a call. I will be honored to shoot a round of SC with you. We can even publish the outcome on here and have a modest side bet?
Just looked down the list and respectfully we’re talking different levels of coaching and champions. Talking about winning and winning are two different things sir.
The sport needs every level of coach and there will be a market for everyone ours are just extremely different.
I know every top shot for the last 20 years and know the style they shoot inside out.
On a podcast a few months ago all the top shots explained how the sport is completely different to 5 years ago and delivered very differently
Why would you suggest that?
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