Gunfit and conflicting advice
- Thread starter ChrisPackham
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Will Hewland
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I don't quite get this.. My gun was a terrible fit when I first bought it, needing lots more cast before it would naturally align the rib (when I just dropped my face down without thinking). However, I always ensured that I was lined up with the rib, so the result was that I shot where I was looking, but my head was at an awkward angle. I have made two modifications to the gun over the years to improve the fit, but it's all about ease of use. I would never have been in a position where the gun shot to the left. Is the way I relate to the gun different to some other people?
Jim Wheeler
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ips
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With respect I don't get this.
If your gun was such a terrible fit why oh why did you buy it ?
Will Hewland
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Wonko the Sane
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If the gun hasn't enough cast it is common to see people with the head tilted to the right so as to get the right eye more to the right and look down the rib. Unlevel eyes are naughty, as we all know
I went thru more guns than I would admit that didn't fit me because I didn't have a clue. That's pretty common too.
ChrisPackham
Well-known member
Because it wasn't in the eyes of the person that sold it ..as I said due to the slight adjustment being made by me without realising that I shouldn't do it when static fit in a shop, which when further checked by a cpsa coach using static fit, the gun seemed to fit .. It was only when looked at dynamically on clays that it became obvious ... Sorry I thought I had made that clear.
This is and could be a great thread if it is not derailed !
Noticeable the amount of conflicting opinions, those who have never had a real fitting session versus those who have and realised the benefits of a good fitting session.
To have a fitting at a gunshop whilst buying a gun is only an approximation , often not taking into account the use of the correct clothing.
Using a torch or laser in the bore in a gunshop only indicates your ability to point straight.
Shooting at a pattern plate only gives an approximation of correct fit .
A good Instructor / Coach /Gunfitter will check gunmount and fit whilst watching you shoot numerous times and targets.
Only when you can centre every variation of target presentation can he and you truthfully say that the gun is a good fit.
This may be the reason that gun stocks sprout moleskin additions to the comb after a session with a static gunfit.
Let's be blunt , if you have an adjustable comb why would you require a gelpad or moleskin ?
If you have an adjustable comb and it is set central and in its bottom position, why would you need it to be adjustable?
Aagh ! Because the gun salesman said " It suits you Sir."
Noticeable the amount of conflicting opinions, those who have never had a real fitting session versus those who have and realised the benefits of a good fitting session.
To have a fitting at a gunshop whilst buying a gun is only an approximation , often not taking into account the use of the correct clothing.
Using a torch or laser in the bore in a gunshop only indicates your ability to point straight.
Shooting at a pattern plate only gives an approximation of correct fit .
A good Instructor / Coach /Gunfitter will check gunmount and fit whilst watching you shoot numerous times and targets.
Only when you can centre every variation of target presentation can he and you truthfully say that the gun is a good fit.
This may be the reason that gun stocks sprout moleskin additions to the comb after a session with a static gunfit.
Let's be blunt , if you have an adjustable comb why would you require a gelpad or moleskin ?
If you have an adjustable comb and it is set central and in its bottom position, why would you need it to be adjustable?
Aagh ! Because the gun salesman said " It suits you Sir."
ChrisPackham
Well-known member
I think that you make a really good point, shops can do what they can but they can lack the facilities and possibly expertise to genuinely decide what fits and what doesn't (ignoring completely any conflict of interest which may or may not exist). The problem is, especially for beginers like myself, that you can only go by what you are told and the help you get from others, such as you guys on this forum.
It makes me wonder whether the RRP should be closer adhered to but include a gun fitting session with an independent expert and the associate minor adjustments costs. I will certainly be budgeting for a gun for any other guns i buy ontop of purchase price rom now on, SXS will be going in for fit once OU is back.
I am looking forward to seeing scores improve, i can definitely see why i suffered from a degree of hesitancy on some targets that i couldn't quite figure out why.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
RRP to include gun fit is, sorry, but a crazy suggestion. It can cost £500 for the whole thing and is unnecessary for many people. And I still say that decent gun fit is mainly about ease of use and comfort, so if anybody thinks a minor fit change will gain them 20 targets, think again.
i maintain its a two stage thing. Approximate gunfit is critical to get right. Perfect gunfit, like most things, offers a diminishing return for a lot more money perhaps.
Recently, I accompanied a mate to a shop to buy a new gun. (That typical second gun that people buy after about a years shooting..). The shop was keen to sell him a lovely looking grade 5 Miroku, which my mate had tried a few days earlier. Despite feeling a lot of recoil and it giving him a headache, he was keen to go with it. I got him to mount it in the shop and while I am no gun fitting expert, it was clearly too long and the comb was much too low. How could a shop be trying to sell him this? I eventually persuaded him to buy a brand new Browning 525 instead, which was a way better fit and had a decent recoil pad built in from new. He is very happy with it.
My mate is not yet consistent enough in his gun mount to have an expensive fit looked at (and likely won't ever need it) but at least I made sure he could see over the top lever and that he looked comfortable with reach and nose to trigger-hand position.
i maintain its a two stage thing. Approximate gunfit is critical to get right. Perfect gunfit, like most things, offers a diminishing return for a lot more money perhaps.
Recently, I accompanied a mate to a shop to buy a new gun. (That typical second gun that people buy after about a years shooting..). The shop was keen to sell him a lovely looking grade 5 Miroku, which my mate had tried a few days earlier. Despite feeling a lot of recoil and it giving him a headache, he was keen to go with it. I got him to mount it in the shop and while I am no gun fitting expert, it was clearly too long and the comb was much too low. How could a shop be trying to sell him this? I eventually persuaded him to buy a brand new Browning 525 instead, which was a way better fit and had a decent recoil pad built in from new. He is very happy with it.
My mate is not yet consistent enough in his gun mount to have an expensive fit looked at (and likely won't ever need it) but at least I made sure he could see over the top lever and that he looked comfortable with reach and nose to trigger-hand position.
"This is and could be a great thread if it is not derailed !"
I have found the different view somewhat enlightening to say the least. From a personal point of view I am the sort of person that tends not to blame the tools as it were . In other words I shoot a round of 20 and blame the misses on myself for not being consistent in my technique and poor concentration on the job. I maybe analyse things in the wrong way? I look at things from the point of view that hey you have shot plenty of 23's and 24's using the same gun why blame 19's and 20's on the gun? When the other side of the coin is that the gun is making me do things from time to time that instead of converting those 23's and 24's into 25's but turns in the other direction? I have never had my gun fit checked other than for eye alignment with the rib, everybody agrees that is ok... other aspects no idea! I have to say that the idea that a perfect gun fit will automatically improve my scores is a fanciful notion although I do understand that it could be very important to many shooters. I am still in the blame myself not the gun bracket to be honest but I am going to see if I can get a bit of advice from the guys at the club as to where I could go to have my gun fit checked.
I have found the different view somewhat enlightening to say the least. From a personal point of view I am the sort of person that tends not to blame the tools as it were . In other words I shoot a round of 20 and blame the misses on myself for not being consistent in my technique and poor concentration on the job. I maybe analyse things in the wrong way? I look at things from the point of view that hey you have shot plenty of 23's and 24's using the same gun why blame 19's and 20's on the gun? When the other side of the coin is that the gun is making me do things from time to time that instead of converting those 23's and 24's into 25's but turns in the other direction? I have never had my gun fit checked other than for eye alignment with the rib, everybody agrees that is ok... other aspects no idea! I have to say that the idea that a perfect gun fit will automatically improve my scores is a fanciful notion although I do understand that it could be very important to many shooters. I am still in the blame myself not the gun bracket to be honest but I am going to see if I can get a bit of advice from the guys at the club as to where I could go to have my gun fit checked.
Will a lot of points in there I totally agree with! I am a novice really but it is not too difficult to understand that a gun that is an almost perfect/good fit will deliver an almost perfect /good result if the person shooting it is up to the job. It is, as I think you have already said, a matter of how good the shooter is and of course that the gun is not so bad that a basic mount is not possible with it, nobody wants so suffer recoil issues and so on. On the other hand if you are not the sort that can get your head past worrying about an issue such as this then the best option is to have the gun checked out otherwise you will not get the best out of the gun/you combination. I don't think I am the only person on here that knows lots of really good shooters who have never had their gun fitted, not saying that means its not important but it highlights that it is not an absolute necessity for building a good score.
ChrisPackham
Well-known member
Will, what I meant was if the guns sold for RRP and included a basic element of gun fit and simple adjustment as opposed to this perceived discount on RRP which is what they sell for... Obviously complicated stuff would be charged additionally but simple cast alteration could be included easily.
When you think about it, to spend 2k or even five times that without a gun fit seems crazy, you wouldn't drop 2k on a set of golf clubs without being fit.
Even if there are no adjustments necessary the added confidence gained form knowing that the gun fitted would be worth it in my opinion. If it included a pattern plate to allow people to see patterns through different chokes and cartridges that would also help beginners like myself enormously, even if again it was just for understanding and confidence purposes.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
It's tricky. Cast adjustment isn't always simple, doesn't always work and risks damaging the gun. Who wants to do that on a new one! Big adjustment can involve machining the stock where it mates to the receiver. And so many guns can be used as they are; so why build cost in? I do agree that you can't always trust the salesman and I do feel that the full gun fitting session can be an unnecessary waste of money (sometimes even an unnecessary event altogether. I have seen guns made much worse for £400..).
in the 10 years I have been shooting properly (or so I call it ?) a big advance has been the range of recoil pads. Beretta and latterly Browning offer variants that just screw on and fit, which is great. However, I did recently watch a lady shooting who had the most awful stance and hold, but she had one of those totally adjustable position pads, which had been moved hugely, making it contact her hugely out-of-position shoulder. Shudder.. I suppose it worked for her in a certain way.. But was doing nothing to cure the problem of her whole stance and approach.
in the 10 years I have been shooting properly (or so I call it ?) a big advance has been the range of recoil pads. Beretta and latterly Browning offer variants that just screw on and fit, which is great. However, I did recently watch a lady shooting who had the most awful stance and hold, but she had one of those totally adjustable position pads, which had been moved hugely, making it contact her hugely out-of-position shoulder. Shudder.. I suppose it worked for her in a certain way.. But was doing nothing to cure the problem of her whole stance and approach.
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ChrisPackham
Well-known member
I agree it's tricky and possibly not for everyone, I guess I am lucky as The fitting is free I just pay for the adjustment which is only slight change to cast and it should be straightforward as the gun is new and previous un manipulated. If I thought it would cost 500 I may have taken a different view.
This is indeed an interesting thread and subject, for what it's worth I think gun fit for a novice is futile, for a semi experienced shot it has it's moments, like when some very obvious flaw such as too long a stock is spotted and easily resolved. Poor recoil characteristics too can be spotted and cured, along with addressing the shooters own faults in stance and mount.
But having watched thousands of shooters I'd say the vast majority of misses are nothing to do with poor gun fit as such, you can watch a B or even A class shooter mince a pair or three in succession and then through brain fade and lack of experience suddenly either chip or clean miss the next few birds. Close enough is good enough in other words.
The only guy who is qualified to tell you what you need is you. It is you who has to understand the complexities of what is causing what. You'll know when the time is right for you to tell the gunsmith what you want him to do. How many times have you heard the ole stories of people going to Italy to have a proper buying/fitting experience whilst parting with thousands only to find they're no better off than they were before and in many cases much worse in fact.
In reply to Salopian ref the adj combs and sorbothane sheets: wood is a solid and regardless of how well the geometry of the stock/face is worked out, the fact remains that these materials are not only warmer but noticeably nicer under recoil. I agree there is little point in having an adj comb if it sits on its lowest setting but even then there may well be tiny cast benefits.
But having watched thousands of shooters I'd say the vast majority of misses are nothing to do with poor gun fit as such, you can watch a B or even A class shooter mince a pair or three in succession and then through brain fade and lack of experience suddenly either chip or clean miss the next few birds. Close enough is good enough in other words.
The only guy who is qualified to tell you what you need is you. It is you who has to understand the complexities of what is causing what. You'll know when the time is right for you to tell the gunsmith what you want him to do. How many times have you heard the ole stories of people going to Italy to have a proper buying/fitting experience whilst parting with thousands only to find they're no better off than they were before and in many cases much worse in fact.
In reply to Salopian ref the adj combs and sorbothane sheets: wood is a solid and regardless of how well the geometry of the stock/face is worked out, the fact remains that these materials are not only warmer but noticeably nicer under recoil. I agree there is little point in having an adj comb if it sits on its lowest setting but even then there may well be tiny cast benefits.
ips
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It's simple
Many shoot well despite of poor gun fit many shoot well despite of poor technique many shoot well because they do not understand the finer intricacies and therefore do not get side tracked with anything but seeing the target break.
I have known many naturally talented folk be able to pick any gun up and shoot well with it but for most of us we need all the help we can get SO correct gun fit and good replicable technique is a must.
Conversely I have known many mediocre shooters who spend many thousands on guns and stocks and every conceivable fad on a futile quest to achieve greatness only to discover that the shooting holly grail despite popular belief does not exist.
Don't ask me how I know this.
Many shoot well despite of poor gun fit many shoot well despite of poor technique many shoot well because they do not understand the finer intricacies and therefore do not get side tracked with anything but seeing the target break.
I have known many naturally talented folk be able to pick any gun up and shoot well with it but for most of us we need all the help we can get SO correct gun fit and good replicable technique is a must.
Conversely I have known many mediocre shooters who spend many thousands on guns and stocks and every conceivable fad on a futile quest to achieve greatness only to discover that the shooting holly grail despite popular belief does not exist.
Don't ask me how I know this.
PhilS
Well-known member
Or how much it cost you to find out eh??
westley
Well-known member
Elderkins Gunsmiths offer a FREE fitting service with ANY gun sold by them. I have experienced first hand an example of their work. A shooting friend had suffered for years, shooting right handed guns from his left shoulder. On my advice he went to Elderkins and bought a secondhand Browning B2C. Two weeks later he collected the gun AFTER the required work had been carried out. The gun is now cast for a left hooker and he has never shot so well with any gun he has owned (and he has had a few). A few minor adjustments from a good stockfitter, now he has owned the gun and shot it for a couple of years and the job should be complete. There are a few GUNSMITHS who sell guns and offer a fitting service, but they are few and far between.
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