DTL first timer

[westley]

Totally agree davy, i have also shot dtl with 1/4 and what kills i had were cack.

Fixed choke trap guns are (with maybe the odd exception) 3/4 full. Mr Beretta and perazi etc would have had input from very clever folk including shooters and concluded that is the correct choke for trap. Its only since multi choke that folk have got all questioning about it. Yes some folk had fixed choke guns regulated even opened up a bit but trap with 1/4 ....its a no from me...you can also keep 1/2 

When I shot DTL we got 3 points for either a dusted or chipped first barrel and 2 points for either a dusted or chipped 2nd. barrel.  Have they altered the rules now  ?

 

[ChrisPackham]

My points being ....

1) presumably a good even pattern is better than a tight choke with a less consistent pattern, SPECIFICALLY ... my ¾ choke pattens much more evenly than full when using the same cartridge ( which I’m not changing) so I should run with ½ and ¾ for ABT rather than ¾ and full?

2) knowing I have the best combination of equipment for me - maybe this is a confidence play, but it’s important that I give myself every chance in what I am using... everyone has days ranging from amazing to sh*t,  but having the best option available to me in pay helps me..

Point taken about game shooting, but personally if I’m not shooting well enough then I stop, slip my gun and help others in some way, I’m really uncomfortable in not killing things which is why again I give myself every chance.  Mind you having been dragged along on some special days with self proclaimed game experts I’m not sure I shoot much worse than them.  I think the wider problem is that people shoot at birds they shouldn’t and adopt the ‘getting their money’s worth’ approach...  that’s a thread for another time..

 

[jwpzx9r]

My points being ....

1) presumably a good even pattern is better than a tight choke with a less consistent pattern, SPECIFICALLY ... my ¾ choke pattens much more evenly than full when using the same cartridge ( which I’m not changing) so I should run with ½ and ¾ for ABT rather than ¾ and full?

2) knowing I have the best combination of equipment for me - maybe this is a confidence play, but it’s important that I give myself every chance in what I am using... everyone has days ranging from amazing to sh*t,  but having the best option available to me in pay helps me..

Point taken about game shooting, but personally if I’m not shooting well enough then I stop, slip my gun and help others in some way, I’m really uncomfortable in not killing things which is why again I give myself every chance.  Mind you having been dragged along on some special days with self proclaimed game experts I’m not sure I shoot much worse than them.  I think the wider problem is that people shoot at birds they shouldn’t and adopt the ‘getting their money’s worth’ approach...  that’s a thread for another time..

When  member of the GBR trap shooting  team tells you he shoots with a gun measured for 1/2 and 3/4 choke restrictions and is happy with the way his gun breaks targets you are inclined to listen... but the truth is if you put the target in the centre of the pattern most any choke will blast targets from the sky at first barrel distance. One caveat to the whole shemozzle is that although one gun is say restricted for 3/4 and full it does not necessarily follow that is will throw the same patterns as another gun with the same restrictions. For example I have heard that Perazzi shotguns tend to throw tight patterns for any given restriction when compared to what should be seen... I do not know if that is true or not. Another very important thing to keep in mind also is that trap guns made  Perazzi, Beretta , Zoli  et.al. are usually fixed choke of 3/4 and full because they are designed to shoot 24g loads ... when you have 28g of lead you can shoot more open chokes you have about 17% more pellets in the load.

 

[ChrisPackham]

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it and I’m not ignoring it, I’d just like the answer in respect of pattern even ness versus constriction and therefore density..

To put it another way, is it important to get as many pellet strikes as possible on the target as it’s edge on going away?

Im sorry if I haven’t worded this very well, I’m still recovering from manflu..

When  member of the GBR trap shooting  team tells you he shoots with a gun measured for 1/2 and 3/4 choke restrictions and is happy with the way his gun breaks targets you are inclined to listen... but the truth is if you put the target in the centre of the pattern most any choke will blast targets from the sky at first barrel distance. One caveat to the whole shemozzle is that although one gun is say restricted for 3/4 and full it does not necessarily follow that is will throw the same patterns as another gun with the same restrictions. For example I have heard that Perazzi shotguns tend to throw tight patterns for any given restriction when compared to what should be seen... I do not know if that is true or not. Another very important thing to keep in mind also is that trap guns made  Perazzi, Beretta , Zoli  et.al. are usually fixed choke of 3/4 and full because they are designed to shoot 24g loads ... when you have 28g of lead you can shoot more open chokes you have about 17% more pellets in the load.

This is great, thanks, I use 24 gr loads as I suffer recoil issues... Does this have a bearing on my question above?

 

[PhilR]

Point taken about game shooting, but personally if I’m not shooting well enough then I stop, slip my gun and help others in some way, I’m really uncomfortable in not killing things which is why again I give myself every chance.  Mind you having been dragged along on some special days with self proclaimed game experts I’m not sure I shoot much worse than them.  I think the wider problem is that people shoot at birds they shouldn’t and adopt the ‘getting their money’s worth’ approach...  that’s a thread for another time..

You pack up game shooting during the day because you're not shooting well enough?  Well I'm sorry but you'd have been torn off a strip by me and the shoot captain on my syndicate. Fairly guaranteed you wouldn't be offered a place next season too.

Understandable to withdraw through illness but totally uncalled for because you're feeling a bit precious about your shooting. I don't think you're cut out for game shooting and your 'help' certainly wouldn't be wanted either. 

 

[ChrisPackham]

You pack up game shooting during the day because you're not shooting well enough?  Well I'm sorry but you'd have been torn off a strip by me and the shoot captain on my syndicate. Fairly guaranteed you wouldn't be offered a place next season too.

Understandable to withdraw through illness but totally uncalled for because you're feeling a bit precious about your shooting. I don't think you're cut out for game shooting and your 'help' certainly wouldn't be wanted either. 

Fortunately it’s a rare occurrence, but yes, I’d rather not shoot than feel I’m not going to kill things cleanly.  If the keeper, shoot captain or any of the other staff felt the need to have words then they can jog on and we won’t be back. If any guests shot poorly consistent winging birds on my shoot, or syndicate members they would be encouraged to take a break.  It’s the ‘let’s try to kill everything like my hero on the telly’ brigade that are going to f*** up game shooting for the more sporting people.

Nothing to do with being precious, it’s about having respect (of which you clearly have none) and most people appreciate a hand with spotting, loading, bag carrying if it’s done in the right way, maybe some people just lack the charisma

 

[balltrap]

Oh I don't know,  I find pheasant and chips a very acceptable.    :angel:

Ok, here is one for your game shooting theory, I shot a 100 birder sporting today using my new toy, a 20 bore. I was unaware of what chokes were in it,  as they were in it when I got it. I shot a reasonable (for me)  78/100. There was not a single stand where I did not hit at least 1 of each target, including the high tower and a few distant targets. My cartridges were a mixture of 24 and 28 gram 7's and 7 1/2's. I have just been cleaning the gun and removed the chokes for cleaning, skeet and 1/4 were in the gun. Not knowing which chokes were in it, avoided the faffing around with the safety catch from stand to stand. I now need to find another 20 bore Inv choke in 1/4,  to shoot my favoured 1/4 in both.

Being simple minded, I too take the 'simple approach'  of   "If it ain't broken, then DON'T fix it"   !

Thats a good move shooting a 20 bore at your age it will be less weight and less recoil, hope you shoot it well  :smile:

 

[westley]

Thats a good move shooting a 20 bore at your age it will be less weight and less recoil, hope you shoot it well  :smile:

For a first time out, I was very happy. Thank you for your concern though  !

 

[chippy]

I tighten up a bit for ABT. I use 3/8 and 1/2.

 

[ips]

You pack up game shooting during the day because you're not shooting well enough?  Well I'm sorry but you'd have been torn off a strip by me and the shoot captain on my syndicate. Fairly guaranteed you wouldn't be offered a place next season too.

Understandable to withdraw through illness but totally uncalled for because you're feeling a bit precious about your shooting. I don't think you're cut out for game shooting and your 'help' certainly wouldn't be wanted either. 

Thats a bit harsh phil.

When  member of the GBR trap shooting  team tells you he shoots with a gun measured for 1/2 and 3/4 choke restrictions and is happy with the way his gun breaks targets you are inclined to listen... but the truth is if you put the target in the centre of the pattern most any choke will blast targets from the sky at first barrel distance. One caveat to the whole shemozzle is that although one gun is say restricted for 3/4 and full it does not necessarily follow that is will throw the same patterns as another gun with the same restrictions. For example I have heard that Perazzi shotguns tend to throw tight patterns for any given restriction when compared to what should be seen... I do not know if that is true or not. Another very important thing to keep in mind also is that trap guns made  Perazzi, Beretta , Zoli  et.al. are usually fixed choke of 3/4 and full because they are designed to shoot 24g loads ... when you have 28g of lead you can shoot more open chokes you have about 17% more pellets in the load.

This is a fare point john. I have had guns that throw a tighter pattern than others with same (alleged) choke.

Phil is a great shoooter, an ambassador for the sport and a friend and i would not be so bold as to dispute anything he may say or advise , however most trap shooters use 3/4 full and there is no denying the fact.

 

[PhilR]

Thats a bit harsh phil.

Not really. My syndicate is a small farm shoot of one team comprising three parts:  beaters, pickers up and guns. Each part is expecting the other two parts to do their jobs on the day too, not dip in and out as the feeling takes them.

We stand nine guns, suddenly one dropping out buggers it up for everyone else. If we're one short at the start of the day, it does happen very occasionally if someone is ill, we can normal get one of the half guns not on rotation to stand in or one of the beaters gets a bonus day.

Having someone in the team who wants to opt in or out on a whim is a nuisance and they'd get told. There's plenty of guns who'd like to join the syndicate and add value to it.

Similarly if guns are noticed to be taking unsporting shots, are poaching other guns' birds or acting in an unsafe manner they are spoken to too.

It strikes me this bloke is just a 

 

[ChrisPackham]

Thankfully, not every shoot is like yours. Most shoots understand that it’s the guns prerogative as to how they want the day to run thankfully, for example who only stand 7 to try to keep most people in the shooting, there is nothing worse than being crammed together like sardines

If you can’t tolerate and respect other people’s opinions then it’s you who is the badger who has no place in an open inclusive sport and adds little to society

Sounds  like you should stick to your little Jonah game in your tin shed

 

[Paul120]

 Cylinder is all you need for OT as proved at Nuthampstead.

View attachment 11728125_987691007931549_1354752915_n.mp4

 

[PhilR]

Thankfully, not every shoot is like yours. Most shoots understand that it’s the guns prerogative as to how they want the day to run thankfully, for example who only stand 7 to try to keep most people in the shooting, there is nothing worse than being crammed together like sardines

If you can’t tolerate and respect other people’s opinions then it’s you who is the badger who has no place in an open inclusive sport and adds little to society

Sounds  like you should stick to your little Jonah game in your tin shed

 

[ips]

 Cylinder is all you need for OT as proved at Nuthampstead.

View attachment 7093

..

however we all remember the times when even full wouldn't break em at nutty  :frown:

Not really. My syndicate is a small farm shoot of one team comprising three parts:  beaters, pickers up and guns. Each part is expecting the other two parts to do their jobs on the day too, not dip in and out as the feeling takes them.

We stand nine guns, suddenly one dropping out buggers it up for everyone else. If we're one short at the start of the day, it does happen very occasionally if someone is ill, we can normal get one of the half guns not on rotation to stand in or one of the beaters gets a bonus day.

Having someone in the team who wants to opt in or out on a whim is a nuisance and they'd get told. There's plenty of guns who'd like to join the syndicate and add value to it.

Similarly if guns are noticed to be taking unsporting shots, are poaching other guns' birds or acting in an unsafe manner they are spoken to too.

It strikes me this bloke is just a 

not dissimilar to my syndicate, 16 guns 2 teams of 8 stand one walk one. We are regularily short of a gun or guns so we either give a beater (there are only a couple who come for free to work there dogs) a shoot, or one of the other team stands as we can usually beat the woods with fewer folk than we have. It sound s to me like PP is saying that he is uncomfortable pricking birds if he is "having a day" like we all sometimes have and to me it is commendable to stand down and shows respect for the quarry, nobody likes an undead bird. A slight digression from the original topic but re unsporting birds, I am in no way advocating pilowcasing birds but what is more unsporting a dead bird a little low or a pricked bird at 50yd ?? Unsafe shots we do not tolerate on any of the shoots I attend in capacity of gun or loader. Poaching doesn't really happen on our syndicate as we all have respect for each other and are more concerned about "the syndicates day" than we are about individual bags, I suppose its a case of getting into a really good respectful syndicate and I count myself lucky to have done so. 

 

[Doug Pinnegar]

I'm going to shoot at my first DTL and ABT targets on Friday (hopefully) at Edgehill. 

Then on Sunday I'm shooting the 'All Round' at Orston so will be shooting them in a registered environment. Will stick with 3/8 for the Single barrel DTL and then move up to 1/2 for the ABT (unsure if it's double barrel at ABT in All Round?)

 

[ips]

its up to you and much info has been thrown about but out of interest on what basis are you using 3/8 for dtl and 1/2 for abt ?

Do you consider that the extra "spread" of an open choke with the odd flyer on the edge of the pattern will give you an advantage over a more dense pattern of a 3/4.??

Folk talk about it not mattering what choke you have in (even if you can tell the difference) as the target will break if you point it in the right direction, I read these remarks to mean that the target will break despite of the open choke not because of it............if people who advocate open chokes for trap and pointing it in the right direction as being the main reason that a target is killed truly believed it then they would be shooting full and full and concerning themselves with doing just that  ????

Fixed choke trap guns are 3/4 and full for a reason..especially ABT and OT were the target is edge on and can be a fare distance.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Phil is a great shoooter, an ambassador for the sport and a friend and i would not be so bold as to dispute anything he may say or advise , however most trap shooters use 3/4 full and there is no denying the fact.

Ian you are a very experienced shooter and do not need to be told what chokes can be used you have already found what suits you and that is fine. The post I made was for the OP who has not got your, or Phil's, experience. As to choking on trap guns, Perazzi will make you a trap gun with any choke sizes you want. The reason as you know the favoured 3/4 and full persists is down to the fact that very good shooters can and do use tight chokes with 24 g of lead... it in no way means that the are the standard required.

The article by Derek Partridge was illuminating. Here is a man who has, indeed was the first, to shoot 200 straight at OT has won numerous major competitions and when he writes an article explaining WHY in general most trap shooters shoot with chokes that are too tight for optimum performance.. sensible people will take note. In short his analysis of his shooting revealed that nine times out of ten he made powder of the target first barrel ... great you might think... no he says! The optimal break is not a black ball of dust but a star shaped collection of clay target pieces... even for him! Now what he was saying is that lesser shooters will be more competitive with open chokes because they will break targets that they might miss with 3/4 while using 1/2 or even less for a first barrel. He actually advocates the 3/8 choke for a first barrel and quite rightly states that the object of the exercise is to break the target not atomize it ! Of course his article is not written for professional or major shooters... it is written for the likes of me an you, shooters who are nowhere near the standard required to shoot and win major competitions, but written to try and help people like us to break targets consistently.

 

[ips]

Ian you are a very experienced shooter and do not need to be told what chokes can be used you have already found what suits you and that is fine. The post I made was for the OP who has not got your, or Phil's, experience. As to choking on trap guns, Perazzi will make you a trap gun with any choke sizes you want. The reason as you know the favoured 3/4 and full persists is down to the fact that very good shooters can and do use tight chokes... it in no way means that the are the standard required.

The article by Derek Partridge was illuminating. Here is a man who has, indeed was the first, to shoot 200 straight at OT has won numerous major competitions and when he writes an article explaining WHY in general most trap shooters shoot with chokes that are too tight for optimum performance.. sensible people will take note. In short his analysis of his shooting revealed that nine times out of ten he made powder of the target first barrel ... great you might think... no he says! The optimal break is not a black ball of dust but a star shaped collection of clay target pieces... even for him! Now what he was saying is that lesser shooters will be more competitive with open chokes because they will break targets that they might miss with 3/4 while using 1/2 or even less for a first barrel. He actually advocates the 3/8 choke for a first barrel and quite rightly states that the object of the exercise is to break the target not atomize it ! Of course his article is not written for professional or major shooters... it is written for the likes of me an you, shooters who are nowhere near the standard required to shoot and win major competitions, but written to try and help people like us to break targets consistently.

with respect was this not written in the days that preceeded 24g loads

 

[jwpzx9r]

with respect was this not written in the days that preceeded 24g loads

Yes I think it was 28g when he wrote the article ... that does not diminish the principal though as  DTL, UT and ABT are 28g disciplines . I have shot my Perazzi using 24g loads and to be honest not been at all disappointed. In short I am intelligent enough to know when I miss the target... it was my fault not being on the target and not blaming the miss on the size of the choke in my gun.

Ian one has to be aware of ones own shooting. I have shot lots of straights now BUT I have also shot a lot more 24's and 23's but when I shoot those I don't say to myself bastard that clay went straight through the pattern or duff cartridges ... I know when I have missed the target! :lol: