Cheating in Sporting
- Thread starter Salopian
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ehb102
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Be clean and honest all the way through, because everything maters and it all feeds into the whole. If you let one part rot then the rot spreads.
People changing their score cards or claiming birds is obviously cheating and it shouldn't happen. It's the coaching in the stand I hate. It's happened to me, unasked for, by a ref, who assumed that because we had some new people we were all new. Patronising git! We might not have been scoring very highly but there were team places at stake. You can't write off TO as not worthy of policing.
People changing their score cards or claiming birds is obviously cheating and it shouldn't happen. It's the coaching in the stand I hate. It's happened to me, unasked for, by a ref, who assumed that because we had some new people we were all new. Patronising git! We might not have been scoring very highly but there were team places at stake. You can't write off TO as not worthy of policing.
Jim Wheeler
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an interesting topic.
it is nice to shoot with people you know, however, one way to combat some of the "coaching" and a bit of "rule bending" is to squad shooters so it splits up the groups, who then will hopefully be fair about reffing and "Policing" each other etc. You also get to meet new shooters,, and if done with a mix of classes, can be useful learning experience to shoot with an AA , B , 2xC class shooters. Might be good for ground owners too, pre-book , and he then knows numbers,
it is nice to shoot with people you know, however, one way to combat some of the "coaching" and a bit of "rule bending" is to squad shooters so it splits up the groups, who then will hopefully be fair about reffing and "Policing" each other etc. You also get to meet new shooters,, and if done with a mix of classes, can be useful learning experience to shoot with an AA , B , 2xC class shooters. Might be good for ground owners too, pre-book , and he then knows numbers,
I don't mind being squadded for certain shoots but I really wouldn't want to be curtailed by that at every shoot. In any event even at squadded events you will most times have squads of friends together as they will have booked in together and most know each other so you won't really get many groups that don't know half of the squad if not more. Let's start at the top then and get the AAA coaches to stop coaching their A class clients in the stands. Then we can work out way down to the I couldn't hit an elephant if it was right in front of me enthusiastic friends helping their novice friends. I've watched a AAA extremely well known shooter coaching his client whilst client was on the stand at a registered shoot but quite frankly what he was telling the client to do was not at all helpful or informative, I could have done better and the client didn't benefit at all from the in stand
I know this is groundhog day but it does bear repetition. Few shoots provide referees - the vast majority are scorers. There is a huge difference. One knows the rules and enforces them, the other couldn't really care less and can't wait to go home. The shoot organiser knows the difference and in his defence, often finds it difficult to employ good referees and scorers.
Coaching someone at a registered shoot who happens to be shooting targets only is against the rules - as a good referee would know. Their scores are still recorded for classification purposes.
If you are unhappy with the standard of refereeing at a shoot, vote with your feet and spend your money elsewhere.
Coaching someone at a registered shoot who happens to be shooting targets only is against the rules - as a good referee would know. Their scores are still recorded for classification purposes.
If you are unhappy with the standard of refereeing at a shoot, vote with your feet and spend your money elsewhere.
The majority of shoots use/employ younger scores because they simply cannot find enough mature refs. At a recent registered shoot I witnessed multiple shooters not bothering with eye protection and because they use young scorers they were NOT challenged.
I mentioned this to the shoot owner and the reply was and I quote " I'm fed up of telling them, let them loose an eye"
So, do we butt in and tell other shooters to comply when the ref is young and inexperienced and afraid to say anything ??????
Weren't we talking about this Sunday. There are actually some very good, well informed young refs/scorers who you can tell have been trained by the ground. Yours are good and Widdington's are good they all call losses, announce last pair, check whose in the stand. At several other shoots they have good individuals who are young but do a very good job. It can be very difficult for the grounds to have consistency in who comes to score, two ground owners have told me that so no sooner have they told them the rules but they are gone so it is an endless task. If a youngster has got the rules wrong I always explain as they could eventually come up against someone who won't take the time and just get really cross. The sort of thing I'm talking about is recording losses and kills with no bird Simo pairs, that sort of thing or offering every Tom Dick and Harry to see a pair even though they've just watched the shooter before them. That's expensive for the ground. But it's not only youngsters to be fair. Last week I did notify the ground that the majority of their refs were offering to see a pair even though you were stood there for ages. One ref asked me and I said no thanks and asked if the CPSA rules had been changed regarding seeing a pair to which he huffily said its up to you Madam if you don't want to see a pair to which I then got cross because he had used Madam and said it wasn't up to me as I had watched two shooters before me and unless the rules had changed then I was not entitled to. To their credit someone from the ground did say they would have a word about that rule because it isn't even a hard one.
Well said Phil, obviously you are cost effective and factor in GOOD referees (not necessarily qualified but trained anfd know the rules).
BUT should a referee scorer really be subjected to abuse from anally retentive morons who REALLY need that one target to retain their averages.
You meet far nicer people at Tea Dances ! Slow , Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, " Severn"
" But Ref I hit that last one , surely an Eight?"
BUT should a referee scorer really be subjected to abuse from anally retentive morons who REALLY need that one target to retain their averages.
You meet far nicer people at Tea Dances ! Slow , Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow, " Severn"
" But Ref I hit that last one , surely an Eight?"
Phil, sadly I haven't shot at your ground and I was not having a dig at you. I'm a FITASC ref and know that some shooters are capable of intimidation, my last sentence was aimed at all the honest shooters who would not dream of cheating.
So again. Do we butt in and say something, or do we meekly accept that cheating and intimidation occur.
Jim Wheeler
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It was a suggestion,or alternative to the mates and friends doing the bully/coach/score your mates thing? thing is,if your happy with the current situation then fine,,and yes, it can only work well on big shoots, internationals and so on, And yes, you are correct that you may know others in the squad if you are a regular shooter in the area, nothing wrong with that,,the point is there will be a couple of shooters who you don't know , which is the point i am making. but the alternative is to have only CPSA or FITASC refs that have done the training courses etc, i would not do the job for £30 + an hour! then the cost to shoot a registered will go up!
Seems you basically agree then?
philmoss
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Wynno, not for 1 minute did i detect that you was having a go at me !!!.........
I was merely commenting that NOT every or some grounds favour young, inexperianced button pushers & that some grounds have more professionalism & respect towards the paying customer & wont cut costs.I am also a ESP/FITASC ref & i would never be bullied.......
schmokinn
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Four counties has only mid teens as refs and they are some of the best i have seen,call hit/miss,last pair,who should be shooting and so forth yes they may be open to intimidation by some but i haven't seen it there though i have elsewhere.
Other places have similar and they are awful,the only difference i can see is the employer....so maybe some of them need training?
Other places have similar and they are awful,the only difference i can see is the employer....so maybe some of them need training?
Will Hewland
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Agree, four counties do it more professionally than anywhere else. Don't like how they have been trained, but at least they are consistent.. ?
Richard59
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Have often scored, think everyone should consider scoring at least one registered shoot as an insight as to what happens during the 4/6/7 hours one is smiling, chatting, buttoning, calling, marking, kill/loss adjudicator, logging score, chasing next shooter, noting shooter displeasure at no bird, more smiling and the regular cleaning shoot stand of spent cartridges.
Mistakes get made, it's how these are questioned / raised / resolved that stick in the mind, well in my mind anyway. I shoot registered (not very well maybe, but shoot them I do) at quite a lot of grounds, and it is rare that a round been completed without seeing a query, will add, not as yet seen any query raised that wasn't a genuine ask rather than a fishing expedition.
Mistakes get made, it's how these are questioned / raised / resolved that stick in the mind, well in my mind anyway. I shoot registered (not very well maybe, but shoot them I do) at quite a lot of grounds, and it is rare that a round been completed without seeing a query, will add, not as yet seen any query raised that wasn't a genuine ask rather than a fishing expedition.
Steve Lovatt
Well-known member
Interesting points all above .
I wonder what would happen if shooters around a ground started speaking up a bit for example
"stop bulling that ref "
"put your glasses on "
"don't throw your rubbish on the floor "
we all don't really have to be told what to do then maybe we would all become a more professional sport to be enjoyed by all
as for getting refs or scorers , yes it is the hardest part of our job so we use and encourage a few young people , which are in a lot of cases keen and eager to do the job correct ,
One of the biggest problems is around us on a Sunday within an hours or so radius there is a lot of shooting taking place so the pool of resources is drastically reduced to draw upon as say for a ground out on there on there own in the north or east .
I wonder what would happen if shooters around a ground started speaking up a bit for example
"stop bulling that ref "
"put your glasses on "
"don't throw your rubbish on the floor "
we all don't really have to be told what to do then maybe we would all become a more professional sport to be enjoyed by all
as for getting refs or scorers , yes it is the hardest part of our job so we use and encourage a few young people , which are in a lot of cases keen and eager to do the job correct ,
One of the biggest problems is around us on a Sunday within an hours or so radius there is a lot of shooting taking place so the pool of resources is drastically reduced to draw upon as say for a ground out on there on there own in the north or east .
As a shooter, (and this is from personal experience) telling another shooter (in a very nice way) to put glasses on does not go down well, then telling his dad to stop coaching him through every shot and hold point in the cage during a selection shoot caused a (probably life long) grudge!!! Telling an almost out of control shooter who was shouting and swearing at a ref I would phone the police if he didn't calm down immediately almost got me punched...I told him I'd report him for assault and he calmed down.
I can't blame shooters for not wanting to get involved, it's a ball ache, you get no thanks, they tend to tell everyone how hard done by they are and twist the truth...knowingly entering in the wrong class and accepting prize money seems to be more socially acceptable to some than telling shoot owners where to find the correct averages...
I have to say I just can't understand why some people get so worked up about things like glasses or coaching, ultimately what the hell does it matter to YOU ? That kind of thing just wouldn't even register with me let alone whinging in their earole that they should be wearing specs cos it's registered. :baby:
Abusive behaviour towards refs though is altogether different and I'd say you did the right thing regardless.
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Jim Wheeler
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What an attitude that is !
It matters to me that people get injured etc, because they are selfish enough to ignore common sense and stuff up everyone elses day because of all the upset it causes ,at the least it will stop the shoot, or get it stopped, involving all sorts of inconvenience for others because YOU cant be bothered to wear glasses etc. i have seen several injuries over years that ended in tears and Ambulances,,
sure , it`s your choice i suppose to lose your eyesight and sue the ground-owner,or ignore advice and rules which are for your own good,, but why piss off everyone else because your an idiot?
