Cartridge prices

[newbie]

simple answer: coordinate bulk orders through this forum, leveraging buyer power, buy in bulk direct from a/the manufacturer if you are serious. Most manufacturers will deal to clubs/grounds so surely a forum with c2-3K members has some serious buying power..... pass on at cost to members and bingo.... cheaper shooting, do more of it, lower barriers to entry and get more youth into the sport... [locates tin hat, places on head, takes cover].

am sure you'd get Eley olympics for c£135-140/k or FBlu for c£135/k as an example inclusive of VAT.....

 

[RobertBeard]

Trouble is that it is not simple!

Quantity means funding, storage, transport, accounting,VAT, bad debts etc

That's why we have shops - conveniently located around the country with lots of choice of makes, shot sizes, bore and weight.

From all the input on here we could never agree on a common choice to suit all.

If we did it ourselves we are just reducing trade for the shops and grounds which would likely suffer.

Nice idea but not terribly practical I'm afraid

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

Trouble is that it is not simple! Quantity means funding, storage, transport, accounting,VAT, bad debts etc That's why we have shops - conveniently located around the country with lots of choice of makes, shot sizes, bore and weight. From all the input on here we could never agree on a common choice to suit all. If we did it ourselves we are just reducing trade for the shops and grounds which would likely suffer. Nice idea but not terribly practical I'm afraid

How right you are Robert nothing is ever that simple, countryway guns buy large amounts with the old ploy of stack em high and sell em cheap hence their buying power and ability to push prices down with the suppliers but it proves it can be done, sadly not all gun shops/grounds have the storage capacity to buy in large amounts :mellow:

 

[psych4shooting]

Trouble is that it is not simple! Quantity means funding, storage, transport, accounting,VAT, bad debts etc That's why we have shops - conveniently located around the country with lots of choice of makes, shot sizes, bore and weight. From all the input on here we could never agree on a common choice to suit all. If we did it ourselves we are just reducing trade for the shops and grounds which would likely suffer. Nice idea but not terribly practical I'm afraid

Very valid points Robert. I know that everyone is price conscious and I am no different to others, I think consortium buying is not the answer, also as you can do with everyday shopping, you can choose to shop a Aldi or Waitrose, people have choices, but equally with choice comes variety of choice either more or less. Within the UK cartridges can be purchased through small gunshops, larger gunshops, shooting grounds and clubs. But what we need to avoid is lessening the amount of gunshops and ultimately seeing them close. Everyone deserves to make a living and some misunderstand the money, time and effort that the majority of gunshops and grounds put into developing the sport and encouraging juniors - to try to be undercutting the main trade routes then you will see the support of juniors, competitions and much more disappear and then you will have the converse reaction that the trade do not support the sport. There is always a happy medium, but equally be aware of what you wish for. The debate on cartridges will never go away, but don`t think that those in the trade do not put back into the sport - great examples of where grounds encourage people to get into the sport, help juniors, invest heavily in the sport include Ian Coley`s (and that is not me saying that), Oxford Gun Company, Westfields, Sporting Targets, Auchterhouse, Chris Potter and many many more.. At a time when we should be pushing our sport, don`t try to look at ways to kill off the trade that ultimately supports it - Ian Coley, Doug Florent and Chris Potter would be three names that have strived to be professionals in the business and support those that enjoy the sport in anyway they can.

 

[Mr Potter]

simple answer: coordinate bulk orders through this forum, leveraging buyer power, buy in bulk direct from a/the manufacturer if you are serious. Most manufacturers will deal to clubs/grounds so surely a forum with c2-3K members has some serious buying power..... pass on at cost to members and bingo.... cheaper shooting, do more of it, lower barriers to entry and get more youth into the sport... [locates tin hat, places on head, takes cover].

am sure you'd get Eley olympics for c£135-140/k or FBlu for c£135/k as an example inclusive of VAT.....

A theoretically good idea but it's a pipe dream unfortunately.  To generate any sort of significant discount I suspect the order would have to be for 100k+ and even then it would only be a token discount they won't want to discourage their loyal retailers, the "organiser" of this bulk buy would be laying out something like £14k and as far as I am aware UK cartridge manufacturers don't give credit terms, it's cash upfront.

So how long would it take from lets say the 1st of January 2013, for the organiser to get orders for one brand and model of cartridge (ie. Eley Olympics) that totals 100,000.  Not sure about (and can't be a**ed to look it up) but potentially there are 16 variations on this one shell, shot sizes 7, 7.5,8 and 9, 28g and 24g and plastic and fibre wad.  He or she, the organiser, will want the money in advance or sure as eggs is eggs they will be stuck with at least 25,000 shells when people have changed their minds, a bit short this month, changed to a different brand etc, etc.  My guess for the timescale is in the region of when hell freezes over!!

Assume I'm wrong and the order goes in, few days later a truck arrives at the organisers house with 4 pallets weighing about a tonne apiece, driver's a bit pissed because there is no forklift to unload him and the organiser is thinking what the f**k have I let myself in for.  Eventually gets said 400 slabs stacked in his/her garage, sits down for a well earned cuppa and starts to wonder if my household insurance covers me for all this lot among a host of other legal questions.

Then, as if this isn't enough the biggest challenge of the lot, distributing the bloody things, no doubt the first 10 to 20 thousand are picked up by the forum members who live in the locality or shoot at the same shoots as the organiser. The remainder of the forum members are spread from John O'Groats to Land's End so some of them will require post or courier,  Now Webber has been struggling to find a courier who will take shotgun cartridges for his new business so there is a possible impasse but assume a courier is found and off they all go.  Organiser is getting increasingly paranoid that he/she has got the orders right and that Mr X who is expecting 2,500 28g 8s plastic wad doesn't get 1,750 24g 7's in fibre!!  This is after getting all the additional monies in for the transport and his/her e-mail in-box is choked with members saying that the courier charges are making the shells dearer than their local supplier!

See what I mean, theoretically a great idea but in reallity...............

Anyone willing to volunteer??

I am sure those who think manufacturers and importers are pricing to what the market will stand are correct. Lets be honest who blames them,  in their position any one of us would do the same or we wouldn't deserve to be in business.  Don't forget we're a funny lot us shooters, most of us fall into the trap of believing dearer is better.  Using Eley as an example, if Olympics are OK then just think how much better VIP FITASC will be!!  So there will always be a markets for the "premium" shells.  IMHO the manufacturers big mistake was to let nearly 20 years go by with hardly any significant increase then they take off like a rocket over the last 4 or 5 years.  If they had crept up year on year they would be where they are now but we'd have hardly noticed. 

Clay shooting is not a cheap sport (unfortunately) There are only three ways as far as I can see to reduce cartridge cost;

1]   Get so good that a manufacturer or importer gives them to you. 

2]   Shoot fewer of them

3]   Change brand and/or type to a less expensive one.  Simples

Mr Potter

 

[ianmaney]

Well said Mr Potter !!!!

 

[Mark Jones]

Don't think looking for a bargain is restricted to shooting. Shop about, buy,shoot!

 

[Salopian]

How about starting a  cartridge outlet and stock massive quantities of cartridges on behalf of the manufacturers at no cost. Cream off the profit, make millions then liquidate? Simple,  become a multimillionaire, set wife and kids up in luxury, then go and do a bit of a jail sentence, 3 Years? reduced to 18months, do a degree course from Open University, happy ever after.

Newport South Wales could be a good base?

 

[newbie]

Excellent posts Mr P and Phil. My point was largely theoretical and I wasn't suggesting there wasn't an impact to such an action or that there aren't problems in doing so but its not beyond the wit of man to do. My post was merely suggesting if people felt strongly then its an option and one where issues are easily overcome.

Where i might believe and feel we need to retain outlets in whatever form, i do feel there is still a place for competition in the market place as we seem to be getting lazy in cartridges as the Net Profit Margin is still good (relative) and we aren't driving down the barriers to entry for the greater good (a lot more complicated as Phil suggests than just this). If shooters feel the market isnt moving in the direction they want then 'laissez faire' should prevail and the 'herd' should vote with their feet in order to 'stimulate' suppliers/manufacturers to respond and provide what they want. If Cost is the driver then manufacturers should be optimising their product lines accordingly or improving their production efficiency to meet demands. Capitalism is getting lazy in this context.... i find it 'curious' that the price of the exact same product between geographical regions can vary so much e.g., quoted above for olympics varying £30/k with local suppliers using the 'well it will cost you to travel card'. I feel the point here is some outlets are being VERY competitive and others just not wishing to play ball. Again, theoretically as local outlets gain size they should be able to offer greater value but what we see in the local market place is actually the grounds or smaller providers offering better vfm.

I think people have the right to do whatever they like, buy what they like and how they like it (that includes selling as the market should dictate who survives). What i personally dont like are all the excuses as to why something which is essentially quite a cheap and essential (probably the issue here) commodity for the longevity of the sport is being used to make above average returns from. its a consumable after all.

Just my 2c as its a debate. Not wishing to upset anyone in the trade!

 

[webber]

A theoretically good idea but it's a pipe dream unfortunately.  To generate any sort of significant discount I suspect the order would have to be for 100k+ and even then it would only be a token discount they won't want to discourage their loyal retailers, the "organiser" of this bulk buy would be laying out something like £14k and as far as I am aware UK cartridge manufacturers don't give credit terms, it's cash upfront.

So how long would it take from lets say the 1st of January 2013, for the organiser to get orders for one brand and model of cartridge (ie. Eley Olympics) that totals 100,000.  Not sure about (and can't be a**ed to look it up) but potentially there are 16 variations on this one shell, shot sizes 7, 7.5,8 and 9, 28g and 24g and plastic and fibre wad.  He or she, the organiser, will want the money in advance or sure as eggs is eggs they will be stuck with at least 25,000 shells when people have changed their minds, a bit short this month, changed to a different brand etc, etc.  My guess for the timescale is in the region of when hell freezes over!!

Assume I'm wrong and the order goes in, few days later a truck arrives at the organisers house with 4 pallets weighing about a tonne apiece, driver's a bit pissed because there is no forklift to unload him and the organiser is thinking what the f**k have I let myself in for.  Eventually gets said 400 slabs stacked in his/her garage, sits down for a well earned cuppa and starts to wonder if my household insurance covers me for all this lot among a host of other legal questions.

Then, as if this isn't enough the biggest challenge of the lot, distributing the bloody things, no doubt the first 10 to 20 thousand are picked up by the forum members who live in the locality or shoot at the same shoots as the organiser. The remainder of the forum members are spread from John O'Groats to Land's End so some of them will require post or courier,  Now Webber has been struggling to find a courier who will take shotgun cartridges for his new business so there is a possible impasse but assume a courier is found and off they all go.  Organiser is getting increasingly paranoid that he/she has got the orders right and that Mr X who is expecting 2,500 28g 8s plastic wad doesn't get 1,750 24g 7's in fibre!!  This is after getting all the additional monies in for the transport and his/her e-mail in-box is choked with members saying that the courier charges are making the shells dearer than their local supplier!

See what I mean, theoretically a great idea but in reallity...............

Anyone willing to volunteer??

I am sure those who think manufacturers and importers are pricing to what the market will stand are correct. Lets be honest who blames them,  in their position any one of us would do the same or we wouldn't deserve to be in business.  Don't forget we're a funny lot us shooters, most of us fall into the trap of believing dearer is better.  Using Eley as an example, if Olympics are OK then just think how much better VIP FITASC will be!!  So there will always be a markets for the "premium" shells.  IMHO the manufacturers big mistake was to let nearly 20 years go by with hardly any significant increase then they take off like a rocket over the last 4 or 5 years.  If they had crept up year on year they would be where they are now but we'd have hardly noticed. 

Clay shooting is not a cheap sport (unfortunately) There are only three ways as far as I can see to reduce cartridge cost;

1]   Get so good that a manufacturer or importer gives them to you. 

2]   Shoot fewer of them

3]   Change brand and/or type to a less expensive one.  Simples

Mr Potter

I can only echo the very valid points made by Mr. Potter, but can expand on a few of them.

Anyone who has visited my works will understand where I am coming from.  Space costs money.

I have one and a half decent sized former offices racked out floor to ceiling packed almost to capacity with virtually the full range of Fiocchi cartridges.  I've spent about a day this week erecting more shelving in preparation for a January delivery.  I'm already looking into relocating our archive to afford more space for future expansion.

Security work is still ongoing, I can't quote an accurate figure as much of it has been done by my own employees, family or Gunner Gordon, but the materials alone run into a few thousand.  The shelving was salvaged for free, but would has cost lots had I needed to buy it.

I do get some credit, but its not the norm.  My company has an almost blemishles credit history going back around 35 years.

Handling the slabs is time consuming, its not a buy it cheap and stack it high, sell it quick business.

I've already sponsored one shooter; all will be revealed when Fiocchi get their new clothing range sorted out.

I've provided basic coaching to beginners and young shooters for several years for free for many years.  I'm off to Kelbrook soon to do the same.

All sports cost money, some more than others.  The cartridge that you shoot is the least costly component  of a days shooting, but its the one that attracts the most comment.  Clays don't cost anywhere near 30 pence each, yet we shell out and enjoy the sport.

I deliver cartridges throughout most parts of the North West via my company transport.  Mr. Potter is correct in reporting that I have failed to find a national carrier to take small quantities of cartridges.  Its more to do with "company policy" and restictive trade practice than health & safety and legislation; but I'm still looking.

webber

 

[lexikia]

As i understand it, the more expensive carttridges have more  Antimony than cheaper one's, which makes the shot "harder" on exit through chokes, stopping the shot from flattening, meaning more shot will reach the target.

Anitmony is a lot more expensive than lead hence the increase in price. Does more expensive cartidges make some one a better shooter? No idea being a relative begginer.

 

[abbeygold]

Out of interest, just how good does one have to get before a manufacturer takes interest and considers giving you shells for free?

Those who read Pull magazine surely couldn't fail to notice a young man who shoots in excess of 10,000 registered sporting a year and still maintains a 90% + average. Oh and shoots for England.

As far as I know he isn't sponsored for shells.

What's a man (or woman) gotta do?

Sorry if this isn't strictly to do with cartridge prices....

 

[Maxum]

Out of interest, just how good does one have to get before a manufacturer takes interest and considers giving you shells for free?

Those who read Pull magazine surely couldn't fail to notice a young man who shoots in excess of 10,000 registered sporting a year and still maintains a 90% + average. Oh and shoots for England.

As far as I know he isn't sponsored for shells.

What's a man (or woman) gotta do?

Sorry if this isn't strictly to do with cartridge prices....

There are very few shooters who get free cartridges. You have to be a major title winner of a few recognised comps to even get near. Most are sponsored for shells at a sponsored rate. Ie they still pay for them but at a reduced price.

If you win a comp you get some free shells as part of the prize fund )

 

[40UP]

Anybody who has enough talent should get themselves into the top three of an Olympic discipline [not including sporting]. 1000 cartridges and a huge amount of talent should be enough or vice versa. Once you are a podium potential athlete your every cost can be supported. Except your university, job experience, career, family and personal relationships will have to be sacrificed. Current trends may require you to shoot up to a thousand targets in a day. Frequently. Practicing till you bleed hardly means you will enjoy your shooting. Think how many hours an Olympic rower will spend in a gym every day of the year in order to pull themselves down a canal occasionally. For probably no reward.

Perhaps for most people it's better to enjoy the sport at a little cost than to sacrifice all for the possibility of some achievement. Just saying.

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

The rising cost of cartridges over the last couple of years has imo been without doubt the biggest factor as to whether people shoot or not me included, both me and my wife shoot so the costs involved i.e entry fees cartridges clothing travel and so on is obviously double but we continue because our budgets allow us the luxury to do so, its all based on percentages for us and once that rises above an acceptable level we will stop and i truly believe this applies to a very large number of clay shooters. those people us included are the bread and butter of any shooting ground or gunshop or both, very few youngsters have the spare income to support one or the other so any suggestion they are the future saviours is mere speculation in my eyes, i personally have introduced many people to shooting over the years about half have taken up the sport the others have cited lack of spare cash and never shot again.

     The biggest threat to future clay shooting at this moment in time is the cost of ammo that is fact so unless someone starts to put pressure on manufacturers to stay competetive we will all suffer, countryway guns have proved this business model works so i for one will part with my hard earnt pennies there.

(time to get me coat)

 

[RobertBeard]

I don't know the history of shotgun shell prices but having been club treasurer for my target rifle club I can tell you that the price of Eley Tenex .22 target ammo has more than doubled since 2003. We used to sell it to members at £90 per 1,000 which included a 10% profit for the club. Now nobody wants to buy it so we no longer stock it and buy RWS or cheaper grades of Eley. Its price in the club now would be about £215 per 1,000. We are told that its all down to the price of lead and brass but other makers prices don't seem to have risen so fast as their premium ammo is cheaper than Eley.

VAT has only increased in price by 2.5% in that period. There are no import duties within the EU.

Much is down to supply and demand and in the lead up to Olympic years there tends to be a shortage as so much is sold to overseas teams such as China, hence I suspect the price goes up and never comes down again. Shooters migrate to cheaper brands until there is a decline in quality or others catch up Eley with their pricing.

As a club we could get 5% discount off the shop retail price if we bought 3 cases of 5,000 rounds each which made it carriage free from Eley to the shop but that might be 10k Tenex and 5k of Match or Team or Club in the old days.

It would be interesting to have a comparison for shotgun shells if anyone knows the history.

 

[RobertBeard]

As i understand it, the more expensive carttridges have more  Antimony than cheaper one's, which makes the shot "harder" on exit through chokes, stopping the shot from flattening, meaning more shot will reach the target.

Anitmony is a lot more expensive than lead hence the increase in price. Does more expensive cartidges make some one a better shooter? No idea being a relative begginer.

No has yet commented on this interesting post.

According to this http://adroitresources.ca/antimony/supply-demand/ there is only 8 years supply of antimony left in the world and the price has probably moved accordingly. This might push the move to steel shot more than the risks of lead pollution.

 

[Will Hewland]

When I started in 2005, I bought Eley Superbs at £108 and Eley Olympic for £95 I think. In 2006 I bought Express Supremes for £145.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

How about starting a  cartridge outlet and stock massive quantities of cartridges on behalf of the manufacturers at no cost. Cream off the profit, make millions then liquidate? Simple,  become a multimillionaire, set wife and kids up in luxury, then go and do a bit of a jail sentence, 3 Years? reduced to 18months, do a degree course from Open University, happy ever after.

Newport South Wales could be a good base?

Steady....!!!!

.......you got away with that one........ L. O. L.

 

[Salopian]

Nicola,

Thank you for paying attention.

I think we need to evaluate what we want out of our sport and how much we want to pay for it.

If we all realised that there is not a fantastic amount of difference between the very best cartridge and the worst it would be a start.

I think we could all cope very well with a budget priced cartridge if we had to, it is just when we have a surplus of cash and visions of greatness that we trip ourselves up by wasting money on 'premium' brands.

 Nothing at all wrong with Firsts , FBlu, Cheddites etc., If you point them in the right place.

I don't think prices will come down at all. All you have to do is boycott greedy retailers or manufacturers.