Balancing & weight distribution

[Bebo]

Getting feet right helps me a lot with the length of swing arc.  Personally always try not to have to push the gun a long way right of the centreline of my torso.  If I do I'm more likely to dip under the line of the target and also pull my cheek away from the stock.

 

[ips]

My two peneth.

There is no right or wrong regarding weight, point of balance or were you hold the forend. If it works then its right for you. Furthermore faffing about with weights and any other adjustable thing can dig you into a very deep pit if you are not careful

 

[Hamster]

Depends a bit on your height / length of limbs too. I would say end of forend is OK if stock looks right length and the leading arm has a “medium” bend at elbow. An outstretched arm, or a 90% angle just isn’t optimal, wherever you hold it. 

Yes very tall people or those with long arms may well be perfectly OK holding close to the end. 

 

[Martinj]

Yes, I hold it close to the end and, recently it has led to a problem, I changed from a silver pig with Schnabel fore end to a 692 with Schnabel, the new fore end was causing discomfort and soon broke through the skin on my index finger resulting in a bloody mess. I discovered that the lip on the Schnabel had been left sharp from the machining process so I rounded it off with about a 1mm radius and finished it off with stock oil.

If anyone had asked me I would have said that I hold the fore end in the middle as God intended, but now I know differently. I don't know why the new gun feels different to the old one which never had any issues, but I'm still getting the odd bang on my healing finger from recoil. I hold the gun with fingers wrapped round the fore end, not with index finger forward as I sometimes see people doing. Now I'm trying to hold the fore end in the middle but it isn't natural to me as I have monkey arms (e.g. need extra long shirts.)

 

[FreeShot]

Played with weight distribution couple of times. Any sensation regarding weight distribution eventually wore out once I got used to it and from there on it was (yet again) all down to basics – no magic bullet there for me.

 

[Will Hewland]

Played with weight distribution couple of times. Any sensation regarding weight distribution eventually wore out once I got used to it and from there on it was (yet again) all down to basics – no magic bullet there for me.

Agree, it’s all about the last few percent. It’s also the case that you will shoot what you are familiar with best! So sometimes a beneficial change can take time to come good. 

 

[Westward]

Similarly, a Gun that has a center of gravity closer to the shoulder would give a smaller moment of inertia for any given mass, yet some like a gun to be a fair amount of barrel heavy.

Moment of Inertia is a function of overall weight distribution rather than where the centre of gravity sits because the weight is not evenly distributed along the gun. Whether or not this matters depends to an extent on the shooter's physical build. Although I work out and keep fit and strong, I'm very slim. I've found that a gun weight of 8lbs+ with fairly light barrels and a slight forward weight bias seems to suit me. I don't get on with Krieghoffs for example as I find even with the SS it's difficult to stabilise the muzzles for a quick second shot - and I'm not alone with that problem either! The best guns for me seem to be standard F3s, F16s (with some added weight) and almost any CG, but absolute fave is the High Tech Sporter. All have relatively heavy actions and fairly light barrels and, within reason, I'm not much bothered where they balance as long it's around mid way between my hands.

 

[timps]

The weight distribution alters how much force is needed to lift and move the gun due to leverage with your hand being used as the fulcrum. Think of a sledgehammer, pick it up with the head in your hand and point the shaft out then swap holding the shaft end. You will need more effort to hold the shaft end due to mechanical advantage.

Obviously, that is an extreme example, however I had a Browning ultra XS with extended Midas chokes. Although it was lighter than my DT10 it felt heavier in the hands due to the above than the DT10 to myself and anyone, I took shooting who used both.

This was a combination of heavy barrels and also in part due to the Midas extended chokes being made out of the heaviest substance known to man stuck right on the end of 32”. Changing them out for ported lighter ones helped in the handling department but made me despise ported chokes at the same time.

My DT10 weighs in at 8 pound 6oz the balance point is between the hands but with a slightly rearward bias, My Caesar Guerini Assent also weighs in at 8 pound 6oz but with a slightly forward bias.

I added some weight in the stock of my Caesar to balance it just like the DT 10 but I actually prefer how it came standard so the weight is now back in the tool box.

Having shot a barrel heavy gun for quite some time I’m in no hurry to go back to them, however I did get some decent scores with it so it’s not as critical as my mind keeps telling me I just rather shoot with lighter barrels.

 

[MartynB]

The other variables of course  are the shooters  size , age , fitness   .  All these affect what you personally prefer . 

Then on a gun  there will be the density of the wood . I’m also not a big lover of barrel sets that have a thickening or swage for the multichokes . 

Strangely in direct contrast to one of the posts above I find a MK 38 trap gun  much more balanced than an MK 38 sporter : but guess what ? we are both right . 

For quick easy stock weights , chopping a plastic wad cartridge between the shot cup and powder seal gives a nice cylinder to shove into the stock bolt holes and a choice of weights 24 , 28 , etc . 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Is there a right or wrong anything in shooting? What suits one person is alien to another. I was told I shoulder my gun wrongly the other day... simply because I do not mount it into the pocket but further towards the center of my chest... it is a mistake apparently but I get better results mounting my gun there so I do :dontknow:

 

[Lloyd]

Moment of Inertia is a function of overall weight distribution rather than where the centre of gravity sits because the weight is not evenly distributed along the gun. Whether or not this matters depends to an extent on the shooter's physical build. Although I work out and keep fit and strong, I'm very slim. I've found that a gun weight of 8lbs+ with fairly light barrels and a slight forward weight bias seems to suit me. I don't get on with Krieghoffs for example as I find even with the SS it's difficult to stabilise the muzzles for a quick second shot - and I'm not alone with that problem either! The best guns for me seem to be standard F3s, F16s (with some added weight) and almost any CG, but absolute fave is the High Tech Sporter. All have relatively heavy actions and fairly light barrels and, within reason, I'm not much bothered where they balance as long it's around mid way between my hands.

My thoughts were that If the shooter is rotating through the hip/legs, then that is the fulcrum and any mass forward of that is a moment. I was thinking about the shooter and the gun in combination. My thinking may be off?

 

[Westward]

My thoughts were that If the shooter is rotating through the hip/legs, then that is the fulcrum and any mass forward of that is a moment. I was thinking about the shooter and the gun in combination. My thinking may be off?

I think that's right once the gun starts to move to the break point, but that's only one part of the process. All the other gun movements are affected by the feel and handling characteristics of the gun, and of course, as the saying goes: 'One person's meat is another persons poison'.

 

[El Spavo]

Well, this is all very annoying: here's me thinking I'll stick with my 525 for the duration and not need to buy another gun as I can't logically see enough difference between mine and whatever anyone else shoots (apart from stock adjustment)... turns out I may have to try a few and see if weight & balance differences make any improvments.

Buggeration!!

 

[Lloyd]

Well, this is all very annoying: here's me thinking I'll stick with my 525 for the duration and not need to buy another gun as I can't logically see enough difference between mine and whatever anyone else shoots (apart from stock adjustment)... turns out I may have to try a few and see if weight & balance differences make any improvments.

Buggeration!!

Sounds suspiciously like you're trying to justify getting another gun? 

I think there are plenty of trick things you can try to alter the balance of a 525. I hear using lead shot in the stock is commonplace.

I would think even some old tungsten carbide cutters could be epoxied into the fore-end if 'barrell heavy' is your thing; line the fore-end with tinfoil held down with PVA so if you later want to remove the weight you could do so more easily.

An Ultra XS Pro could be just the gun you're looking for?

 

[Martinj]

I would think even some old tungsten carbide cutters could be epoxied into the fore-end if 'barrell heavy' is your thing;

That's an interesting way of recycling old cutters, I was curious so checked the Specific Gravities - Tungsten Carbide = 14.29, Lead = 11.34, so Tungsten Carbide wins but perhaps not so practical or easily available to us shooters.

 

[Lloyd]

That's an interesting way of recycling old cutters, I was curious so checked the Specific Gravities - Tungsten Carbide = 14.29, Lead = 11.34, so Tungsten Carbide wins but perhaps not so practical or easily available to us shooters.

I'd think most small engineering machine shops would be happy to let go of their cutters for beer money. I know they save them up and they get collected occasionally for cash by scrap merchants. It's also readily available on eBay. The market price for scrap tungsten carbide as of August 2019 is £9/kg with the most recent high of £30/kg. Lead is much cheaper at approximately £1/kg. Purdey owners could use gold  

As a guide, a standard Ø6mm end mill would weight about 20g, a Ø8mm end mill would weight about 40g. A typical lathe insert which measures 1/2" across by 3/16" thick weighs about 10g with the smaller sizes being 3/8" across by 1/8" thick weighing 5g.

So a fiver for a tube of Araldite and a tenner stuffed in the pocket of a thirsty machinist should see you with a very tunable ballance.

For the more sophisticated, you can buy tungsten powder to mix into a paste with epoxy from goodfellows.com, but the Purdey might be cheaper!

I'm not sure if lead sheet is still available these days. I remember melting some down as a wee boy on the gas stove at home while my mum was at work. My dad was so cool, still is now at 77  

I stripped out and scraped some lead pipe from my house cellar conversion back in January; four months before I got into shooting! 

EDIT: 

Lead flashing is still available, a 3m roll, 100mm wide x 1.32mm thick costs about £13. A strip 32mm x 100mm would weight 50g

 

[El Spavo]

Ah, just remembered I've got lead sheet in my shed from flashing the extension roof, and jolly flexible it is too... If I did decide to try a bit of extra weight in the stock, I presume this would theoretically work??

Edit: Yup, some of this bad boy... reckon it'll work?! Weighs a ton, cutable, flexible, and very, very free!

 

[Lloyd]

Ah, just remembered I've got lead sheet in my shed from flashing the extension roof, and jolly flexable it is too... If I did decide to try a bit of extra weight in the stock, I presume this would theoretically work??

I'm confident it would roll up into a cylinder quite easily

 

[El Spavo]

Sounds suspiciously like you're trying to justify getting another gun? 

Hah, a big part of me wants to NOT buy another gun and be just as good with my cheap & cheerful as someone with a 10k Krieghoff (although having never tried one, I do like the teutonic efficiency and ultra precision of Blasers!), but I do get that at some point I may possibly need to change to summat else to progress. That is partly the reason for me starting this thread though: that and cast/comb adjustment to me seem the only things that make a difference to any bang stick.

 

[Bebo]

You can have a 10k Krieghoff and still be mediocre.  Speaking from personal experience here.