ABT (a personal view)

[ips]

Re southern counties yes they do indeed throw some rather big targets. I shot ot with sidney (amongst others) earlier in the year and many of us were somewhat shell shocked as was the case for the abt sel at nutty but that one was a shoot many of us would rather never speak of as the devil himself must have set the targets for his own amusement

 

[40UP]

I know the story of the Italian shooting coach on first seeing DTL. The chauvinistic swine thought it must be for children or ladies.

 

[ips]

Ha,

I am saying nothing further on the matter

 

[PhilR]

New ABT rules introduced last year as follows:  

Max distance, set with trap at zero degrees and 2m high at 10m in front of the trap house is 75m +/- 1m tolerance.  Old rules 75m +/- 5m tolerance.

Min height 1.5m, max height 3.5m measured 10m in front of trap house.  Old rules was with heights mentioned but with +/- 0.5m tolerance.

Max angle is 32.5 degrees +/- 2.5 degrees tolerance.  Old rules 45 degrees.

The reason why the angles were bought back in, from what I've been told, was that grounds utilising a trench layout for ABT had difficulty throwing a 45 degree target at the maximum height as the clays kept hitting the trap house roof, or their supports.

I and other committed ABT shooters think the rules have now been dumbed down, fast and wide targets were good fun to shoot, and sorted the men from the boys.  Now the +/- tolerances have been reduced, the targets thrown ought be more consistent everywhere.  However, the way they're thrown by the different trap installations may lead shooters to think they're shooting big targets when in fact they're not.  The speed the target leaving the throwing arm plays a big part in this, as does the light condition and how well individual shooter's eyes react to the stimulus of the moving clay.

Properly set ABT targets cannot replicate OT targets speeds, with the exception of the zero degree, 2m target which is measured at 75m for the former and 76m for the latter.  All OT targets, whatever their height have this as their set distance with a tolerance +/- of 1m.  If an ABT target is set correctly at the 2m height, then it is physically impossible for a 3.5m target to reach that distance, unless it is wind assisted.

In Italy the lower category shooters can shoot OT with 28gm cartridges.  The higher categories, juniors and ladies have to shoot 24gm.  To cater for the shooters with less ability DTL is gradually starting to make inroads over there. 

 

[40UP]

Hi Phil, thanks for posting. My trigonometry rusted away after A-levels, I know the optimum angle of elevation for distance with shot is 33-35degrees but what angle is a 2m height with a 10m base for an ABT target even though the trap arm may not be at ground level? If it was 10m high it would be 45degree so 2m high would be no more than 10degree of elevation. Would this give optimum distance for a clay target as I think some higher OT targets would go slower. I'll ask my local man with the speed gun tomorrow if a 3m target goes faster or slower than a 2m target to reach 76m distance.

 

[ips]

Didn't do A level but have got a 10m swimming award.

What's trigothingie ?

I am joking

 

[ips]

Ps.

Whatever the stats abt now has higher targets and faster targets or at least that is everyone i knows perception.

 

[40UP]

As you say Ian, it will be interesting to see the new ABT classification cut-offs at the end of the week which will be 12 months of the new system. I do know the points to qualify for the England team have widened.

 

[ips]

Interesting indeed Fred

i would be very surprised if they are not at least .5 % lower than the last book going off the targets we have shot at this year.

 

[PhilR]

Hi Phil, thanks for posting. My trigonometry rusted away after A-levels, I know the optimum angle of elevation for distance with shot is 33-35degrees but what angle is a 2m height with a 10m base for an ABT target even though the trap arm may not be at ground level? If it was 10m high it would be 45degree so 2m high would be no more than 10degree of elevation. Would this give optimum distance for a clay target as I think some higher OT targets would go slower. I'll ask my local man with the speed gun tomorrow if a 3m target goes faster or slower than a 2m target to reach 76m distance.

Hi Fred, long time no see. I've already got some speed gun data on four types of trap, if your man is JTN I did it for him.  As the max height of targets is 3.5m I'll give that as well as 2m.

Promatic 2m - 58mph; 3.5m - 59mph; CCI clays.

Farey 2m - 56mph; 3.5m - 59mph; CCI clays.

Parker 2m - 61mph; 3.5m - 63mph; Nasta clays.

FAB 2m - 60mph; 3.5m - 66mph; Nasta clays.

As a point of interest there was an increase of speed required for the Parker and FAB to make 75m at 1.5m height, 62mph and 64mph respectively in comparison to that recorded for 2m height.

From my observation with the new restricted angles shooting a max right handed target from peg one, and a max left handed target from peg 5 they're more or less a straight target, and seem to be missed more than the old wider angle which required more gun swing.  

ABT selection shoots this year have mostly been held in pretty naff weather which has depressed the scores more than normal I reckon. 

 

[40UP]

Great data Phil, thanks very much. I notice the Nasta clays take some shifting whereas most people think it's the length of the arm or its grip.

 

[ips]

Interesting data, many thanks Phil

 

[Les53]

I must say that all that data is most intersting, especially as there can possibly be a 6mph difference from one trap/clay combination to another! At the end of the day I still believe that it feels harder than it used to be before the changes were made, it may all be in the mind of course. It is also, when compared to OT, still pretty unfair when it comes to who may get what targets. I'm not much of a shooter these days and I do know that, but my score for ABT was almost the same as my OT scores of late. OK maybe with some practice I may shoot it better, providing I can remember to set myself up differently, as far as foot position and hold point are concerned, on each peg. It may well be the case that different grounds will put on different ABT, in as much as the targets will be harder or not so hard, but it was always like that as far as I can remember. I first shot ABT at West London back in the 1980's and it was a very mean layout!!!!! I later shot it at Bisley, Cupid Green, A1 (then called Boss's), Bentwaters, Rugby and various other places. West London was by far the hardest place I ever found to shoot it, mainly due to the speed, angles and background, but I still enjoyed though. It was a game that most DTL shooters could adapt to fairly easily, but I somehow doubt that the same is true now!

 

[ips]

Les

whatever any data says or whatever angles are compared to old the averages do not lie and prove beyond doubt that it is harder than it was. There is 2% lower cut off on last issue compared to 2011 also everyone's personal averages have gone down.

 

[Les53]

Les

whatever any data says or whatever angles are compared to old the averages do not lie and prove beyond doubt that it is harder than it was. There is 2% lower cut off on last issue compared to 2011 also everyone's personal averages have gone down.

It's such a shame you know Ian, it really was a fantastic discipline and a great introduction to fast trap for rookies!

 

[ips]

Ok i wasn't far off a further .2 % drop from last issue, going off B class as an example.

 

[Dog Tyred]

Ok i wasn't far off a further .2 % drop from last issue, going off B class as an example.

0.7 drop for D class in ABT. I also note that OT has dropped 2.5 targets for D class !! and dropped 1.2 targets for A class.

Either the targets are getting harder or we're shooting worse (probably the latter in my case).

Onwards and downwards

DT

 

[Les53]

Either the targets are getting harder or we're shooting worse (probably the latter in my case).

Onwards and downwards

DT

Same here mate, maybe we're just getting old!!!!!

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I just wish I knew where there is an ABT set-up so I could whine about the new rules.

You think DTL is for women and children?  You should try benchrest trap like what the ATA mandates.  Pre-pubescent children run perfect scores.  this year at the so-called Grand American there were over 200 hundred 200straights that made the singles shootoff.  

rant off

 

[ips]

I just wish I knew where there is an ABT set-up so I could whine about the new rules. You think DTL is for women and children?  You should try benchrest trap like what the ATA mandates.  Pre-pubescent children run perfect scores.  this year at the so-called Grand American there were over 200 hundred 200straights that made the singles shootoff.   rant off

Wow and double wow how long did shoot offf take, 4 days ?