24g No8 Fibre

[AW13]

Not quite, 28g load of English 8's (2.2mm) would have 450 pellets whereas 7.5's (2.3mm) would have 396. 

If switching to 24g loads it may well pay to shoot 8's instead of 7.5's as this goes some way in cancelling out the density issue, FWIW I have shot and tested 24g V 28g loads side by side over extended periods and I agree that if we were all to switch together we wouldn't notice the difference in our collective scores BUT all said and done I reckon there is, give or take, 3 bird penalty with the lower shot count over a decent layout. 

So -  just to be clear, you are suggesting that you 'could' potentially break 3 more clays using 24 8's than you can with 24 7.5's or have I got that wrong.

 

[jwpzx9r]

So -  just to be clear, you are suggesting that you 'could' potentially break 3 more clays using 24 8's than you can with 24 7.5's or have I got that wrong.

THere are a lot of variables in there distance , clay presentation  but if I was shooting trap with a 24g load it would be worth the time to train for a while with 8's for the first barrel. The clay is a bit closer so pure theory would suggest that it should break the clay just as well as a 7.5 ... but the really good shot would just say I am on target and a 7.5 trumps an 8  

 

[Hamster]

So -  just to be clear, you are suggesting that you 'could' potentially break 3 more clays using 24 8's than you can with 24 7.5's or have I got that wrong.

Strictly speaking my comment was aimed at comparing 28g loads V 24g, I shoot almost exclusively English 8's (yes there are times when I have had to change to 7.5's when for instance trying to change brands etc,) but given the choice it's 8's. Therefore whenever I have  conducted these types of tests ( I have also done it with 21g) I have made sure I sourced 24g loads in English 8's to keep the shot count as high as possible, I found that as good as 24g loads are, they are not a match for a 28g load, like for like. The question of fatigue is a very valid one particularly when doing hundreds of rounds per day but in my opinion most shooters myself included, can weather the storm of a 100 birder easily enough. 

This is a very difficult subject to conclusively argue or decide one way or the other because we have to understand that human error itself can mask a good deal of "reality". If we were shooting going away Trap type targets at range or perhaps even bio's (which are supposed to be harder to break), then it may well be provable that in fact 7.5's (despite their lower shot count) would trump 8's simply because individual pellets of the latter may lack the power to cause a break on these edge on clays, only lab condition testing can prove one way or the other.

In ESP I found that smaller loads lacked the fringe benefit of the 28g loads, we all like to think we centre things but the truth is we don't as the dozens of poor and half hearted breaks we all get per round will prove. 

In answer to your question if I had to put money on the subject then YES, I would say if you gave a thousand shooters 24g loads of number 8 shot V another thousand being given 24g 7.5's and monitored their scores properly, the smaller shot size would "luck" into a few extra breaks and win overall, at English sporting that is.

 

[schmokinn]

Strictly speaking my comment was aimed at comparing 28g loads V 24g, I shoot almost exclusively English 8's (yes there are times when I have had to change to 7.5's when for instance trying to change brands etc,) but given the choice it's 8's. Therefore whenever I have  conducted these types of tests ( I have also done it with 21g) I have made sure I sourced 24g loads in English 8's to keep the shot count as high as possible, I found that as good as 24g loads are, they are not a match for a 28g load, like for like. The question of fatigue is a very valid one particularly when doing hundreds of rounds per day but in my opinion most shooters myself included, can weather the storm of a 100 birder easily enough. 

This is a very difficult subject to conclusively argue or decide one way or the other because we have to understand that human error itself can mask a good deal of "reality". If we were shooting going away Trap type targets at range or perhaps even bio's (which are supposed to be harder to break), then it may well be provable that in fact 7.5's (despite their lower shot count) would trump 8's simply because individual pellets of the latter may lack the power to cause a break on these edge on clays, only lab condition testing can prove one way or the other.

In ESP I found that smaller loads lacked the fringe benefit of the 28g loads, we all like to think we centre things but the truth is we don't as the dozens of poor and half hearted breaks we all get per round will prove. 

In answer to your question if I had to put money on the subject then YES, I would say if you gave a thousand shooters 24g loads of number 8 shot V another thousand being given 24g 7.5's and monitored their scores properly, the smaller shot size would "luck" into a few extra breaks and win overall, at English sporting that is.

Just to play devils advocate after reading what you've said wouldn't the extra breaking power of a 7.5 mean that the odd one would get broken that the 8 wouldn't and pretty much even it out?

 

[ChrisPackham]

Disagree; as I found that a 24g shell pattern is effectively the centre of a 28g shell. So if anything, open up the choke to get the same size spread. If you want the same density at centre of pattern , do nothing.

Same for me, 28 only helps me out due to extra ‘fliers’, 24 softer to shoot so I prefer them especially later in the day and over 100 birds I shoot better with 24gr

Only use fibre as I don’t enjoy littering...

 

[Hamster]

Just to play devils advocate after reading what you've said wouldn't the extra breaking power of a 7.5 mean that the odd one would get broken that the 8 wouldn't and pretty much even it out?

That's exactly why I used the Trap example and was at pains to point out that my personal take and experience applies to ESP. Based on over three decades worth of shooting and being more than casually interested in the subject, it's my belief that a single no. 8 pellet (more often than not) will break the vast majority of sporting clay presentations which include a fair bit of edge on, distant and going aways BUT not exclusively so, therefore I consider the trade off of any such "perceivable" kinetic energy difference between a 2.2mm projectile and one that is 2.3mm to be well worth it. 

In other words yes you can argue that the "bigger" pellet may occasionally carry more "minimum requisite" energy for a tiny selection of targets but it ALWAYS has less density. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

In other words yes you can argue that the "bigger" pellet may occasionally carry more "minimum requisite" energy for a tiny selection of targets but it ALWAYS has less density. 

Pedantic I know but the density of the shot cannot change simply because you change the size of the shot... the MASS will change though and through this the kinetic energy of the shot down range will change are varying rates due to size , wind resistance and so retained energy.

 

[Hamster]

Remember this, every single round of ESP completed with no. 8's will have meant that you threw at least 5000 extra pellets at your targets. That is the equivalent of having fired 12 extra shells   do you really believe they will only ever hit fresh air ? 

Pedantic I know but the density of the shot cannot change simply because you change the size of the shot... the MASS will change though and through this the kinetic energy of the shot down range will change are varying rates due to size , wind resistance and so retained energy.

By density I mean coverage, if you view patterns made by 7.5 V 8 shot the latter always looks less sparse. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Remember this, every single round of ESP completed with no. 8's will have meant that you threw at least 5000 extra pellets at your targets. That is the equivalent of having fired 12 extra shells   do you really believe they will only ever hit fresh air ? 

By density I mean coverage, if you view patterns made by 7.5 V 8 shot the latter always looks less sparse. 

Ah I understand Hammy. I thought by some logic you were comparing the energies of two different peices of shot down range... which is also very important in the scheme of things.. it could require more of those small pellets to hit the target at the same instant to be effective enough to break the target if you get my drift. In theory at least at a longer range you could have a target his by two pieces of 7.5 and break it whereas four pieces of may not be enough especially on and edge one target.

 

[Hamster]

Ah I understand Hammy. I thought by some logic you were comparing the energies of two different peices of shot down range... which is also very important in the scheme of things.. it could require more of those small pellets to hit the target at the same instant to be effective enough to break the target if you get my drift.

I came to the conclusion of one pellet being usually enough a long time ago, through slomo videos we now have the benefit of watching shot striking moving clays and it's clear that the breaks start to happen with the first strike with no need for several to hit at the very same time, It makes logical sense really as we know the pattern is a "cloud" as opposed to an instant round arrival of a mass of pellets. 

 

[AW13]

This is extremely interesting and thanks for all the respones.  Can I add one further comment for thought.

Say......if you normally shoot 1/4 & 1/2** for 28g 7.5 plastic wad what chokes would you use for 24g 8's fibre wad.

** for sake of argument assume you stick with the same chokes for the entire course

 

[jwpzx9r]

I came to the conclusion of one pellet being usually enough a long time ago, through slomo videos we now have the benefit of watching shot striking moving clays and it's clear that the breaks start to happen with the first strike with no need for several to hit at the very same time, It makes logical sense really as we know the pattern is a "cloud" as opposed to an instant round arrival of a mass of pellets. 

Could be absolutely correct there Hammy it all comes down to the amount of energy required to break the target. My guess is that some edge on targets are not going to be broken by  8 shot where a 7.5 will be enough? Interesting that this observation should come about because if you think about it what we are in fact saying is only one pellet is required the rest are just for show   Mind you I have just recently in a few competitions been told I actually hit a target when I thought I had missed it... and I always thought I knew when I had hit the target!! Probably just such an occasion when a single pellet chipped a tiny bit off?

This is extremely interesting and thanks for all the respones.  Can I add one further comment for thought.

Say......if you normally shoot 1/4 & 1/2** for 28g 7.5 plastic wad what chokes would you use for 24g 8's fibre wad.

** for sake of argument assume you stick with the same chokes for the entire course

Good question   honest guess 3/8 and 5/8 ... my rational being the pellets have less mass and will spread quicker

 

[Hamster]

Could be absolutely correct there Hammy it all comes down to the amount of energy required to break the target. My guess is that some edge on targets are not going to be broken by  8 shot where a 7.5 will be enough? Interesting that this observation should come about because if you think about it what we are in fact saying is only one pellet is required the rest are just for show   Mind you I have just recently in a few competitions been told I actually hit a target when I thought I had missed it... and I always thought I knew when I had hit the target!! Probably just such an occasion when a single pellet chipped a tiny bit off?

The difference in kinetic energy between a 2.3mm and 2.2mm pellet is easily calculable but must be fairly miniscule especially at the kind of range where it's supposed to make a difference. There are so many other variables involved that make the subject even more complex and extremely difficult to conclusively pin down the targets breakage as being down to that fractional energy variation. Think for instance of the actual area of the edge being struck, how do we even know whether the centre or the ends of the clays are more susceptible, what about different shells antimony contents, what if a 7.5 pellet arrives at the target but is mis-shaped (compared to an 8 that happens to arrive immaculately spherical), what about the velocity variation from shot to shot and most definitely day to day depending on air temperature or air density. 

It's just soooooooo complicated I'd rather just take the 100% verifiable extra density money. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

It's just soooooooo complicated I'd rather just take the 100% verifiable extra density money. 

You are right it is and so much is down to the individual's perception. For example we use Italian shot size down here so 7 or 2.5mm is the biggest allowed now I know quite a few good shots who actually, for me anyway, counter intuitively use 7 in the first tube and 7.5 in the second... they obviously believe that getting one heavy shot on target while it is still close in will do the trick and need more pellets if they miss with the first? Then there is another good shot who , for trap, only uses a 1/4 choke and 8 shot in the first tube but he shoots incredibly quickly with the first barrel... his thinking must be  get as many pellets on the general target area as you can and hope for a break... very effective too regular mid to late 90's UT shooter.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

On the 24gm/28gm thing - - for several years  when I was still reloading I reloaded/shot 24gm exclusively.  I had the speed jacked up so the recoil difference was negligible.  At my meager skill level there was no decline in scores at all.  I even loaded 24gm/9's for skeet and the same thing happened there.  I used 71/2's and 8's otherwise fairly indiscriminately.  Second barrel kills at trap were impressive.  You'll notice that even OT shooters' 2nd barrel kills are decisive and those are edge-on kills at some insane distances.

as always JMO - - YMMV

on the fiber thing I could GAF since I have no reason to even consider using them but here are some thots from other places

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/fibre-vs-plastic-wads.808267/#post-7583543 Dr. A.C. Joneshttp://www.shotgun-insight.com/fibreVsPlasticSporterShells.html"…the patterns over the 9-shell average are almost identical. The distribution of pellets in the 10", 10-20" and 20-30" areas are almost identical. Similarly the probability if hitting the small area of an edge on clay is almost identical.""What this means is that there is no evidence of the fibre wad shells having inferior patterns. This includes any effects of the wad affecting the centre of the pattern or shot deformation leading to more fliers."re: pressures. Fiber wad shells tend to be slightly lowerhttp://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=222102&page=all 
 

 

[Gazz]

Oh my, as a total novice I should have passed on this thread, I never knew cartridges could be so technical .  Tomorrow I go for my 4th lesson and will for the first time take my own budget starter gun with me.  When I bought it, the chap in the shop gave me 2 x 25 Gamebore V+ 28gm (F) to take away and it is these I plan to use.  I honestly have no idea what cartridges I have been using at my previous lessons, but I do recall them being different colours each time.  I guess I will find out tomorrow how I get on.  Seriously though, this thread has been extremely interesting to read so thank you all who have contributed.

 

[Will Hewland]

Oh my, as a total novice I should have passed on this thread, I never knew cartridges could be so technical .  Tomorrow I go for my 4th lesson and will for the first time take my own budget starter gun with me.  When I bought it, the chap in the shop gave me 2 x 25 Gamebore V+ 28gm (F) to take away and it is these I plan to use.  I honestly have no idea what cartridges I have been using at my previous lessons, but I do recall them being different colours each time.  I guess I will find out tomorrow how I get on.  Seriously though, this thread has been extremely interesting to read so thank you all who have contributed.

The V+ are a good cartridge, capable of breaking anything really. They are not very smooth though, so if you find recoil a bit high, don’t worry there are smoother cartridges out there. This involves either going down to 24 or 21g (unless you want to spend a lot of money) which are fine for practice. Hull Comp X 21g Fibre are good at your stage and very pleasant to shoot. 

 

[AW13]

Yesterday I went out with just 24g No8 fibre so I would not be tempted to change cartridges and I shot Teague 1/4 & 1/4 in my B725 also to stop the 'what choke should I use' debate in  my head.

I was on a private shoot with a few friends and we had a load of traps set for a wide variety of targets, The nearest was a rabbit at about 25 yards and the targets ranged out to over 40 yards with a complete mix of report, fast to follow, to sim pairs.

I soon completely forgot what was in the gun and hit all of the target at all ranges without considering whether the cartridge or choke was right for the particular presentation. Obviously I did not hit every bird but it gave me the confidence that No8's can kill longer range edge on birds, 24g will kill at longer ranges and both of these with fairly open chokes.

I am sure if I choked up I could have killed a few more longer range birds but that would have negated the experiment. We had a great day with a BBQ lunch and must have shot more than a slab.  .... I lost count of the cartidges I used when we finished off with a 40 bird flurry with 2 of os shooting at the same time. Great fun.

I know that above was not a proper test, especially with quite a bit of fluffy rabbits throughout the day, but it was a very enjoyable day and shooting should be fun as well

 

[Gazz]

The V+ are a good cartridge, capable of breaking anything really. They are not very smooth though, so if you find recoil a bit high, don’t worry there are smoother cartridges out there. This involves either going down to 24 or 21g (unless you want to spend a lot of money) which are fine for practice. Hull Comp X 21g Fibre are good at your stage and very pleasant to shoot. 

Absolutely spot on......  My very inexperienced result was that the V+28g was a little punchy after I found out that I have been shooting a 21g for my lessons.  I have decided to try a 24g to see how I get on, but my first outing was for me a great day out.  Loved it and cant wait to get out again and have a bit of fun.  Thanks....