Cheap and cheerful cartridges

[Mutley]

Is there anybody out there that shoots a budget cartridge and expects to be competitive ?

No......

Depends what you call budget

Cheapies around £140ish  ok for playing    serious shoots where 1 target will make a big difference if the shells are in the 250 ish range and up, ok, you are only going to use 400 at the most.....

 

[Will Hewland]

Trap shooting probably has more focus on cartridge pattern quality.. but in sporting lots of winners use cheaper stuff. I'm not saying they will use anything, but you can find a cheap one that works for you. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Is there anybody out there that shoots a budget cartridge and expects to be competitive ?

I shoot regularly with a shooter down here who ... has won his cat at UT worlds... as recently as 2015 was 10th scratch (winner shot 196) and second in cat with 192ex200 at the Euro's UT (winner shot 193) and wins nearly every weekend in club comps ... he shoots with a cartridge called Bernizan star you may not have heard of them they cost €200 or £170 per thousand if you suggested he was not serious about trying to win he would smile and walk on... he is a very polite person. If you were to suggest that his choice of cartridge was the reason he was not higher up the list again he would smile and walk on... he is as said polite but not stupid he knows his cartridge is the least of his problems.

 

[balltrap]

I shoot regularly with a shooter down here who ... has won his cat at UT worlds... as recently as 2015 was 10th scratch (winner shot 196) and second in cat with 192ex200 at the Euro's UT (winner shot 193) and wins nearly every weekend in club comps ... he shoots with a cartridge called Bernizan star you may not have heard of them they cost €200 or £170 per thousand if you suggested he was not serious about trying to win he would smile and walk on... he is a very polite person. If you were to suggest that his choice of cartridge was the reason he was not higher up the list again he would smile and walk on... he is as said polite but not stupid he knows his cartridge is the least of his problems.




 




 

http://www.bernizan.com/pagesgenerales/ball_trap.htm

not a budget shell realy

 

[ips]

I would call £170 a middle priced load,

 

[Mutley]

http://www.bernizan.com/pagesgenerales/ball_trap.htm

not a budget shell realy

just looked at the spec, small manufacturer, making quality ammo from top range components, so yes it is possible, but you need to study them all and know whats what if you are serious about ammo.

We have loaded some serious stuff, 24g nickel 8's, AS24 powder, B+P wad, new Cases, 1250fpm, pattern really well, kill at good distance on any target, price... about £240 per 1000.. and we cant use them in comp...

 

[ips]

scores can change on "certain" targets due to "budget" loads.

I have no doubts that there are situations where a pricey cartridge will in the right hands break a distant clay target... but repeat upwards of 90% of people who post on here could not, even if that was their reason to use them, improve their score by using an expensive cartridge over a cheap one. The simple fact is that over 99% of the reason targets are not broken is because the shooter did not hit the target with the shot and if you don't do that then the target is lost regardless of what you put in the gun. As to velocity even if a cartridge had ridiculous variation say 20% you would still break the target with it, it would only make 5-6" difference at 40 yards and there is more than enough energy in the pellets to do the job well past that... a faster pellet slows down at greater rate than a slower one.

furthermore

are you 100% certain that every target that didn't break was because you were no were near it. ??

 

[jwpzx9r]

I would call £170 a middle priced load,

You can call it anything you want they cost considerably less than top brand carts Fiocchi , Clever etc   Alan Barrier uses Cheditte smart strike again less than £200/thou he shot 194ex200 at the French championships however I shot next to him in a comp at Ychoux a couple of months back... he shot a 20!!!!!!!! it had nothing to do with the cartridges though. I think there is a point being missed here, pardon the pun   The reason Guy did not win the Euro's in 2015 is because he had one bad round... nothing to do with what he put in the chamber he shot a 22!! It happens but it had nowt to do with his choice of cartridge.

 

[ips]

or he hit em but they didn't break, or should have hit em but didn't due to inconsistent fps or poor pattern due to low antimony thus deformed shot.

 

[jwpzx9r]

or he hit em but they didn't break, or should have hit em but didn't due to inconsistent fps or poor pattern due to low antimony thus deformed shot.

Ian give it a rest you are suggesting quality shooters don't know what they are about.

 

[ips]

You can call it anything you want they cost considerably less than top brand .

a jaguar xk costs considerably less than a ferrari but that doesnt make it cheap

Ian give it a rest you are suggesting quality shooters don't know what they are about.

john with respect i give up, you are on a mission to argue in any way you can that cartridges are all the same regardless of cost. You shoot a posh expensive perazzi, why do you not shoot a baikal, surely a gun is a gun.

 

[diver682]

Is there anybody out there that shoots a budget cartridge and expects to be competitive ?

Carl Bloxham  uses Fiocchi  TT1s 

 

[balltrap]

jwpzx9r waiting for the next squad out :lol:

Ian give it a rest you are suggesting quality shooters don't know what they are about.

 

[jwpzx9r]

a jaguar xk costs considerably less than a ferrari but that doesnt make it cheap

john with respect i give up, you are on a mission to argue in any way you can that cartridges are all the same regardless of cost. You shoot a posh expensive perazzi, why do you not shoot a baikal, surely a gun is a gun.

No Ian where have I said that all cartridges are the same regardless of cost? I have said that very few people who shoot could actually in a proper test produce a statistically significant increase in their average score that would differentiate a cheaper cartridge from an expensive one. And certainly where the people who regularly contribute to this particular forum are concerned most of them would be far and away better using their hard earned to shoot more by reducing the cost of the cartridges they shoot to help pay for clay targets to shoot.

"or he hit em but they didn't break, or should have hit em but didn't due to inconsistent fps or poor pattern due to low antimony thus deformed shot."

"Ian give it a rest you are suggesting quality shooters don't know what they are about."

Sorry if that reply was a bit curt ... but you are suggesting that a man who can break 194 targets from 200 does not know when he has hit a clay that has not broken  and he has a cartridge problem!

 

[balltrap]

Carl Bloxham  uses Fiocchi  TT1s 

You can throw any old crap at most sporting targets  !

 

[Mutley]

Everybody has got hung up on speed of sheels, the faster the better..... maybe but No....

If fast shells are best why do winchester load their trap loads to 1250, because they hold patterns better and dont kick.....

Probably the nicest shell I ever shot was a winchester load done for Landrover, 28g (twas before 24g), in boxes of 100, soft as silk, pattern like nothing else, balls of soot at any distance and as slow as a Lada on an uphill climb running on 2 cyls... Price.. cant remember, not in Biakal or S&B territory but cheaper than trap 100's.

If I lived on mainland Europe I would be going into Frankonia for these

http://www.frankonia.fr/12-70%2C+Super+Trap+(24gr-2%2C4mm)/Sellier+%2B+Bellot/Apercu.html?Numero_d_article=107475&lastSelected=f_n_schrotgewicht_in_g&f_n_schrotgewicht_in_g=12%2424&navCategoryId=6557

 

[balltrap]

Everybody has got hung up on speed of sheels, the faster the better..... maybe but No....

If fast shells are best why do winchester load their trap loads to 1250, because they hold patterns better and dont kick.....

Probably the nicest shell I ever shot was a winchester load done for Landrover, 28g (twas before 24g), in boxes of 100, soft as silk, pattern like nothing else, balls of soot at any distance and as slow as a Lada on an uphill climb running on 2 cyls... Price.. cant remember, not in Biakal or S&B territory but cheaper than trap 100's.

If I lived on mainland Europe I would be going into Frankonia for these

http://www.frankonia.fr/12-70%2C+Super+Trap+(24gr-2%2C4mm)/Sellier+%2B+Bellot/Apercu.html?Numero_d_article=107475&lastSelected=f_n_schrotgewicht_in_g&f_n_schrotgewicht_in_g=12%2424&navCategoryId=6557




 

I also think there is a bit of confusion as to what the shooter needs, you can get away with budget shells at soft sporting targets but not at fast trap, seems that the comments on here are at a cross as to what discipline you shoot.

 

[Hamster]

If fast shells are best why do winchester load their trap loads to 1250, because they hold patterns better and dont kick.....

The fast shells won't pattern as well as slow/mid thing has been disproved, tis nothing but an old wives tale. So long as you spend time and get the right mix of primer/powder/wad and shot there is no reason why you can't get a fast shell to pattern however you want. There are plenty of fast shells being used to very good effect (as there are slower ones has to be said).

There are many logical reasons why Trap shells are traditionally loaded on the soft recoiling side, in short you simply don't need it to be a demon because they're meant to break a relatively undemanding target at predictable range. Typical Trap targets are shot at little more than 30 yards and as we know from practical experience even no. 9 shot can just about be relied on to do the job on standard clays at this sort of range. The more ESP oriented shells are expected to deal with such targets as well as ones that are physically harder to break such as Chondelles and rabbits and it's pretty much open season as far as ranges go.  Throw in slow rangey droppers showing only the rim or the odd away rabbit and a bit more poke won't be a bad thing. 

I have shot plenty of shells in various price bands and my conclusion is anything currently much over £200 is a waste of money but I have to say I have yet to shoot a truly budget load (say 2-3% antimony) that pole axes clays as well as slightly more premium stuff once you get over 35 odd yards. 

 

[balltrap]

Typical Trap targets are shot at little more than 30 yards .....................maybe DTL but not OT Mr Hamster !

 

[Hamster]

Typical Trap targets are shot at little more than 30 yards .....................maybe DTL but not OT Mr Hamster !

I don't know much about the Trap disciplines but the most common DTL are certainly closish compared to some ESP targets. A quick google revealed that OT clays are set to travel 76 meters and given that the experts invariably shoot fairly fast then it's certainly reasonable to assume they're not routinely being taken at 50 meters.