Modern Cartridge development
- Thread starter Salopian
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Speed in shells causes recoil, a good friend of mine in the States (Ballistic expert for the Army) reckons a shell should not be any faster then 1300 FPS at the muzzle, and the perfect shell weight would be something like 25.5 grams.
The Kent shells George used to shoot were slow and the kills he got were devastating, I have returned to a slower shell recently and have not see any difference in kills - probably due to the clay remaining in one piece BOOM!
The Kent shells George used to shoot were slow and the kills he got were devastating, I have returned to a slower shell recently and have not see any difference in kills - probably due to the clay remaining in one piece BOOM!
Just back after 20 year break back then thee clay cartridge from memory was Winchester, rotweil and victory to we're decent clay cartridge but Winchester was the one to have also from memory only real 1oz load was Ely Impax?
If you owned a browning you were someone special beretta being the big name
Also top scores at your local sporting shoots were in the 80's
Today so many different cartridges it's unbelievable & guns of every denomination & if your not in the 90 pluss scores at sporting your no where .
Biggest difference I have noticed is amount of shoots available and quality of grounds we used to hunt the straw balers down all over the country &travelled miles every weekend to get our fix
If you owned a browning you were someone special beretta being the big name
Also top scores at your local sporting shoots were in the 80's
Today so many different cartridges it's unbelievable & guns of every denomination & if your not in the 90 pluss scores at sporting your no where .
Biggest difference I have noticed is amount of shoots available and quality of grounds we used to hunt the straw balers down all over the country &travelled miles every weekend to get our fix
ips
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Mick Shaw
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andypandy
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mmmm 1 1/8oz compression formed trap 100's and 200's and of course Remington peters and RXP's, probably the best shells ever made!!!
Wonko the Sane
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I'm always skeptical of the speed claims for the hot stuff. I'd be interested to see some independent tests. Over here the manufacturers have been sorta pushing the "super handicap" load and pressing the 32gm closer to 1300fs. Neil Winston has done some extensive chrono tests on those things. The steel game loads are supposed to be 1500+fs these days and no reason why not really with the gas guns to soak up the recoil.
I've never seen the "blown pattern" due to speed and Neil, again, has suggested that it is a myth. Choke effect is speed dependent as the steel loads demo - so-called IC is more than enough to make F at 1500fs. I know that I get very compact patterns with half choke and +/-1350fs loads, lead of course.
Of course the round pellet is an aerodynamic disaster and the muzzle vel is somewhat illusory since the real diff at say 40yds come down to 20-30fs and maybe not all that critical.
Still, I have to admit that it's cool to hear that rifle-like crack coming from a shotgun :hunter:
More may not always be better but who GAF??
!!BANG!!
I've never seen the "blown pattern" due to speed and Neil, again, has suggested that it is a myth. Choke effect is speed dependent as the steel loads demo - so-called IC is more than enough to make F at 1500fs. I know that I get very compact patterns with half choke and +/-1350fs loads, lead of course.
Of course the round pellet is an aerodynamic disaster and the muzzle vel is somewhat illusory since the real diff at say 40yds come down to 20-30fs and maybe not all that critical.
Still, I have to admit that it's cool to hear that rifle-like crack coming from a shotgun :hunter:
More may not always be better but who GAF??
!!BANG!!
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Bryn12
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It may just be an illusion but on a few clays recently I've felt like I had time to go get a coffee and bacon roll between firing the shot and seeing the clay break....quite surreal
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P
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I think cartridges are massively improved these day......just saying.
I think we have a far greater choice nowadays but after checking out components used, surprise , surprise, some shot is considerably inferior, wads are sometimes identical and sometimes cosmetically changed in the shock absorber section , biggest difference is variance of powders , but interestingly the propellant is of a similar weight (grains) even if the powder is visually different .
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Bryn12
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Now that would be very interesting in a nerdy kind of way. In rifle there was a marked difference between 'Tenex' and 'Match' even though the manufacture was identical, if I remember right Tenex were the first 10k from an ingot of lead and a new mould then 'Match' and finally 'Club'. I even used to go through the batches of pellets I was using in air rifle, sorting out identical weights and looking for any visible imperfections, each sorted batch was used in the same comp and the oddities used for practice.
P
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Like everything.....it is how it is put together.....that is where the skill is.
Shaun Hopkins
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Me too but then what would I know being a youngster :spiteful: as for speed I tend to ignore whats written on the box and pass judgement based on shooting them
Having shot many different cartridges I can honestly say that the Fblacks are very quick with superb breaks but recoil is less then another well known Black cartridge and considerably cheaper but in my opinion equal in performance as far as one would be able to judge :nea:
Shaun, Exactly! Watched a squad with Super Dooper fandango Dogsy bolloxy Black thingy mejiggys miss, and then up steps Shortlegs with his cheap as chips Hull Superfasts , smash bang wallop goodnight Mr . Chips .
Spoke to a MAJOR cartridge importer today and told him about this thread and what were his thoughts ? " You may be right but I couldn't possibly comment."
Spoke to a MAJOR cartridge importer today and told him about this thread and what were his thoughts ? " You may be right but I couldn't possibly comment."
Shaun Hopkins
Well-known member
Super Dooper fandango Dogsy bolloxy Black Gold thingy mejiggys!
Would love to see that written on the box Peter just to see who would buy them am sure we all know the type :spiteful:
Wonko the Sane
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I'd buy them just for the "See What I Got!!" factor
N
no.1topdog
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Guess I come under that "type" then as those are the ones I use all the time. :biggrin:
When you shoot as little as me, you have to know every shot is your best one. You cannot afford to have doubts about your cartridge choice.
Yes, I've used cheap cartridges, middle of the road cartridges and b****y expensive cartridges. I've used them all pretty much. But when you find one that does all you ask of it across a wide range of parameters, then you tend to stick to it if you have any sense at all.
The problem here is manufacturers changing their specifications across their range, constantly "improving" (read making more cheaply) their loads, and therefore ruining what was previously pretty good.
Going back to Salopian's original question. I have used some cartridges from the 70's onwards that I would put my hand on my heart and say there were the best I have ever used. Most of them have been mentioned already, particularly the compression formed case examples by Winchester and Remington, but slightly later the Activ cased examples by Gamebore and Rottweil, and now the Gordon cased examples by Gamebore. Can you see where this is leading yet?
I firmly believe that the case plays a far greater part in the performance of a cartridge than it is given credit for. It would be true to say that powders and wads have developed greatly and become more consistent. I can remember the early attempts (or my experience) at plaswad development when they were hated by clay and game shooters alike, because they sometimes didn't unfold like they should and tumbled through the shot, disrupting the pattern.
The technology in powders now has led to far greater consistency in burn rates, and the advancement in shot manufacturing and grading, has led to much, much better patterns in terms of weeding out the fliers. Who can remember unloading some of the old cartridges and finding anything from 9's to 4's in something that was supposed to be 7's? And most of them would be elliptcal at best, with plenty of total mis-shapes in the load.
So yes, I believe cartridge manufacturing right now is generally better than in the old days, but there were some little gems produced over the years that have sadly been lost to us now due to "improvements" in the process.
I'm sure we all have a favourite that is no longer produced? I do! :biggrin:
