Gunfit & Correct length of Stock

I thought that the above may be an interesting subject to debate and possibly informative to the Newbies?

On another Forum there is a thread about what is the correct length of pull ( LoP).

This has never been clearly defined and is very often overlooked when people seek advice about if their gun fits them or not.

It also has many differing opinions from Coaches and Instructors as well as Gun fitters / Gunsmiths.

There seem to be a number of differing opinions as to what is correct .

Rule of thumb (and no pun intended ) is for there to be a gap of one to two finger widths between Shooter's nose and base of thumb (Which is also quoted as first knuckle of Thumb which can be an inch difference!)

.I have also seen quoted a gap of one to two inches, which can be different again dependant on thickness of fingers.

Another school of thought thinks as short as possible without causing injury by thumb hitting face on recoil.

Another theory is as long as possible to promote  steadiness and good gun control .

Yet another idea is it is not too long if it doesn't snag on your clothing when mounting or taking a high driven bird.

Have you had your gun professionally fitted , was length discussed and /or altered, what is your preferred distance? 

Discuss please.

I took my Caesar to Malcom Jenkins for fitting on length and pitch. 

No measurements were discussed, I did offer the stock dimensions from my out going MK6000 but they were not required. 

Amazing I only mounted the gun twice with Malcolm and he never took a measurement. 

The gun is a beautiful fit. No recoil and scores have been on the up since. 

That's skill and knowledge for you. 

My new gun will be going to him too if he is well enough. 

Cheers DBPC for the pictures. 

i have had guns professionally fittted good and bad (didn't know enough when badly fitted) never noticed the distance between thumb and nose.

for me if it slips into the shoulder nicely its right and if it doesnt it needs changing.

now i usually have a pretty good idea what i want before i go and then get some extra input when i am there.

I too, have heard the two finger rule from a few sources.

I have always been of the opinion that as every person is different, there is no set rule on gun fit without actually using a pattern plate to see where the gun is shooting in relation to where you are looking/aiming for... (not for patterning the cartridges... . :lol: )

once that has been established, adjustments can then be made to get the shot landing where you want/expect it to.

I guess if we look at some of the worlds top shooters, especially those who shoot OT, the normal recommendations on length of pull seem to be totally ignored! Some of those guys seem to almost have their hand right back on their cheek, but it works for them, so I presume that whatever works for a particular shooter must be right, even if the text books say it's wrong!  I have discussed this at length with many trap shooters and the following comment  always seems to spring up........"does he shoot well because of that gunfit/mount, or in spite of it"??

So far so good , note in Jeremy's two pictures a differing gunmount, obviously dependant on timing of camera shot , clothing being worn , type of target (high incomer) low target etc., 

I think it can be important especially with a traditional SxS or an O/U with sporting comb (sloping down toward heel ) because dependant on point of where cheek contacts comb can influence sight along rib (eye level).

Salopian said:

So far so good , note in Jeremy's two pictures a differing gunmount, obviously dependant on timing of camera shot , clothing being worn , type of target (high incomer) low target etc., 

I think it can be important especially with a traditional SxS or an O/U with sporting comb (sloping down toward heel ) because dependant on point of where cheek contacts comb can influence sight along rib (eye level).

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I think its the angle of the photos. Same place in both i reckon. He goes for quite a short stock, but as he is not tall, i think this suits him for his left arm as much as anything

OK - to start with I don't care for sloping top stocks.  Having said that I admit that one of the Mirages has that sorta stock and I shoot it as well as anything else.  but I'm a crawler so I'm thinking that the slope is a non-issue.  For me,  as short as possible seems to work best.  With the high comb stocks you'll see Olympic level shooters just like Les says with the face practically over the thumb.  The shorter stock gives me more of a "in the gun" that def makes me happier.  Over the years I've tried longer stocks up to ridiculous and found that as the action gets more remote the less I feel in control of the gun.  Short stocks also seem to turn faster which would only be expected considering the altered moment of inertia of the centroid.  Being able to feel the difference is the surprise to me.

My only suggestion is that if different LOP's are not tried then knowing what works best is still not known.

Very interesting topic... especially for me. Being a trap shooter I have my gun pre-mounted when shooting. The rule of thumb down here at least is very different to that described by Salopian but I am talking about trap shooting and well everybody who shoots sporting knows A. how easy it is and  B. that gun fit/ LOP is irrelevant because of this .  However for my two pence worth, down here the rule is that the knuckle of the thumb and the tip of the nose are nearly or are touching. I recently had my stock shortened by 10mm after taking advice from numerous really good shots. The thinking is that the close proximity of nose and knuckle helps to combat head lifting as well  as helping with gun speed. I like the shorter stock it does give a nice "in the gun feel".  Relating to the photographs for me the head is too far back from the breach by about an inch and a half, the end of his cheek should be at the point of the comb . Bit like this guy

jwpzx9r said:

Very interesting topic... especially for me. Being a trap shooter I have my gun pre-mounted when shooting. The rule of thumb down here at least is very different to that described by Salopian but I am talking about trap shooting and well everybody who shoots sporting knows A. how easy it is and  B. that gun fit/ LOP is irrelevant because of this .  However for my two pence worth, down here the rule is that the knuckle of the thumb and the tip of the nose are nearly or are touching. I recently had my stock shortened by 10mm after taking advice from numerous really good shots. The thinking is that the close proximity of nose and knuckle helps to combat head lifting as well  as helping with gun speed. I like the shorter stock it does give a nice "in the gun feel".  Relating to the photographs for me the head is too far back from the breach by about an inch and a half, the end of his cheek should be at the point of the comb .

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I use a shorter stock in the cold weather, exactly as you have described. This then enables me to wipe my nose on the back of my Mac-Wets whilst shooting.       :angel:

Very interesting topic, can't add any real value to the experienced shooters above, but I will be watching with interest as I have been looking into this myself.  Just added 3/4 inch to a Beretta after gun fitting advice, 1st results seem good but time will tell.

as short as possible without thumb hitting nose on recoil

Interesting thread 

As stated allready a few rule of thumb for guidance but as we know

everybody is different so gonna come down to the individual really

personally my current gun is probably the longest lop I've ever shot 

with and can relate to the theory that it makes the gun steady with good 

gun control 

Am playing with a 14" stock at the moment and loving it, its a glove grip on a 425 trapper, no recoil, nose on thumb fast as a ferret up a trouser leg, but so easy and comfy to shoot...

jwpzx9r said:

Very interesting topic... especially for me. Being a trap shooter I have my gun pre-mounted when shooting. The rule of thumb down here at least is very different to that described by Salopian but I am talking about trap shooting and well everybody who shoots sporting knows A. how easy it is and  B. that gun fit/ LOP is irrelevant because of this .  However for my two pence worth, down here the rule is that the knuckle of the thumb and the tip of the nose are nearly or are touching. I recently had my stock shortened by 10mm after taking advice from numerous really good shots. The thinking is that the close proximity of nose and knuckle helps to combat head lifting as well  as helping with gun speed. I like the shorter stock it does give a nice "in the gun feel".  Relating to the photographs for me the head is too far back from the breach by about an inch and a half, the end of his cheek should be at the point of the comb . Bit like this guy

View attachment 5421

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I am a really lowly C class shooter who does not get out enough so please read the following comment in that light!

The American in this picture may be world class for all I know but for me the stock looks too long!  The butt seems to be more near the top of his arm than in the pocket of his shoulder.  He appears to be straining forward from the look of his neck and the line of his shoulders looks to be almost in line with the gun or at a very acute angle rather than more square to the line of the gun.

So the end of his cheek may be at the point of the comb if that's important but I don't see it as a relaxed, comfortable position and it looks forced to me.

Does anyone else share my view?

Most outstanding shooters will make anything work and I once saw Barry Dagger pick up a rifle from a student who was berating it as he had a crap score and Barry proceeded to shoot a brilliant score with no jacket, sling, glove etc and the rifle not adjusted to him, just to prove there was nothing wrong with the gun!  

Trap and sporting are different. At the risk of offending IPS, there is a lot more variety of movement in sporting which this massively head forward side on stance would not suit. In other words, it's really worth keeping trap and sporting separate when discussing many issues of "clay shooting". 

I will let you know on Saturday

I'm off to AGL for a gunfitting session on Friday ...

:santa:  

Santa,

 perhaps you could ask the Guru at AGL for their opinion and report back?

Just the few comments already received clearly points to a two camp divide.

For Trap shooting I think there may be some mileage in the short stock theory to encourage a quick reaction onto a sideways target.

On the other hand Kim Rhode,  American Olympian uses an awfully long stock and you would consider theoretically it is far too long despite her success and having fully sponsored guns provided by the manufacturer ( who at the end of the day supplies what is asked for).

totally agree with will. I would imagine sporting lop would need to be different