Who is good enough to teach ?

First things first, I am totally of the opinion that if you want to win big titles then as long as you're already of a decent standard (AA or A as a minimum), then your port of call should be one of a dozen or so world class "titled" coaches, but if your objective is to simply learn to shoot better or work towards becoming a AA class shooter who can regularly feature on the Sunday morning comp scene then there are better, dare I say better value routes available. 

I say this because lately some of the fees being charged by the more well known sources are verging on the ridiculous, a few years ago £100 per hour wasn't unheard of, today I have even heard of £160 being demanded, that's nearly £1300 a day.   This is great if you have very deep pockets and a clear objective of beating the best but again, I ask, do you really think that's justifiable for those with more earthly and realistic goals ? 

Having touched on this subject before I think it's time we gave serious credence to those AA/AAA shots who for various reasons haven't won several big titles but are nonetheless highly capable of conveying the technical aspect to lesser shots and build them up into potential winners, in short I think it's time we recognise that this segment of the market is underdeveloped because those in the top echelon of the game have overplayed the "Titles" card and kinda played with peoples minds a tad if you know what I mean ? 

In closing and on a rather different tangent - less than a year ago there were some fairly crude posts made (by the famous) on social media mocking people offering exactly this type of service, the jibes were too thinly disguised and made uncomfortable reading at times. Well..............step forward and if not apologise then at least admit that you were wrong, take a bow James Bradley-Day   you have done yourself proud mate. 

Hamster,

 A very interesting observation , in the trade it is known as 'celebrity status'.

I know a chap who regularly spends £900 a day with a Coach who has never won a title .

I have had the good fortune to witness the American spin on this very subject where a pupil has had an expensive days tuition with a 'coach' and later that week had another lesson with a 'coach' who taught in a totally different way . The pupil ended up poorer and totally confused.

I have had people with eye dominance issues struggle for months trying to shoot with both eyes open because a 'coach' told them too , a 'coach' who incidentally never checked their eye dominance.

I think the answer is to take advice from someone who can progress your shooting and when you reach your goal with that person , move on to the next level.

Success can only be measured by achievement , but we all have differnt aspirations and often due to work or financial pressure , different timescales.

For sure, if you’re a newbie or even a decent C class shot you don’t need a superstar, as they are all about the last few percent, not the basics. I do some coaching, which I confine to B class and below. There are big gains from getting basics right and I only charge a basics rate! (It helps that I’m doing it for enjoyment, not my living..). When you make A and want to go for AA it’s maybe worth seeing Carl Bloxham, Ed Solomons, Ben Husthwaite for sure. 

Be interesting to consider it from the opposite direction as well.  Who is good enough to learn?

I've had a little coaching.  I sometimes wonder if it's a waste of time / money having more, not because of the quality of the coach but because of the limitations of the student.  Sometimes progress seems so slow I wonder if I've just reached the limits of my ability, will never move beyond B class, should call it quits with competitions and just shoot for fun.

Bebo said:

Be interesting to consider it from the opposite direction as well.  Who is good enough to learn?

I've had a little coaching.  I sometimes wonder if it's a waste of time / money having more, not because of the quality of the coach but because of the limitations of the student.  Sometimes progress seems so slow I wonder if I've just reached the limits of my ability, will never move beyond B class, should call it quits with competitions and just shoot for fun.

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No way Jenny, you will go much further. Coaching to get out of B class is something to set you on a path, it’s not the way to bolt on a big score quickly at your level. Shooting plenty with a will to improve will pay off for you. I’ve shot for 13 years and apart from low patches (like the one I’m in now) I’ve  steadily improved continuously. My mate Steve is 5 years in and he is mimicking my early progress. The flat periods make you think you aren’t improving, whereas you are filling your skill set all the time. It will pay off.

tricky subject   I would like coaches to  instil good safety  and etiquette   plus good manners   while shooting competitions     that's a good starting point !       and I agree the cost of some  coaches   beggars belief  these days ,    having said that  some great tips  and  skills  can be seen on youtube     you never stop learning or improving  in all walks of life .     

There are some people who will never learn or get any better no matter what they are told or shown. Then there are others who soak up tuition like its going out of fashion. Everyone has there limits - reaching them is another matter. This i believe applies to all walks of life. 

It's been my experience that being an accomplished anything does not instill the ability to convey what it takes to perform to another person.  Shooting, like many  other sports is a relatively simple bio-mechanical activity.  Understanding how that all works (coach) and transferring that info to the student is not all that difficult.   And a great deal depends on the student being willing to put forth the effort to understand and integrate the info.  How well that is conveyed and how well it is incorporated by the student are critical and may need alternate presentations.  Just look at the multitude of golf coaches  and the top of the ranks players that continue to seek their advice.

Of course there are those who are simply not wired to so some tasks.  Improving a less than innate skill can be tiresome and frustrating.  Realistic goals need to be determined.  Personal limitations have to be accepted and factored in.

just sayin' 

Battue said:

There are some people who will never learn or get any better no matter what they are told or shown. Then there are others who soak up tuition like its going out of fashion. Everyone has there limits - reaching them is another matter. This i believe applies to all walks of life. 

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indeed

Wonko the Sane said:

It's been my experience that being an accomplished anything does not instill the ability to convey what it takes to perform to another person.  Shooting, like many  other sports is a relatively simple bio-mechanical activity.  Understanding how that all works (coach) and transferring that info to the student is not all that difficult.   And a great deal depends on the student being willing to put forth the effort to understand and integrate the info.  How well that is conveyed and how well it is incorporated by the student are critical and may need alternate presentations.  Just look at the multitude of golf coaches  and the top of the ranks players that continue to seek their advice.

Of course there are those who are simply not wired to so some tasks.  Improving a less than innate skill can be tiresome and frustrating.  Realistic goals need to be determined.  Personal limitations have to be accepted and factored in.

just sayin' 

indeed

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Totally agree with both sentiments,. I will add that you can have a good understanding of how to do something without necessarily being able oneself to carry it out to a high standard. If this was not the case all coaches would be internationals and all international's would be coaches.

Battue said:

There are some people who will never learn or get any better no matter what they are told or shown. Then there are others who soak up tuition like its going out of fashion. Everyone has there limits - reaching them is another matter. This i believe applies to all walks of life. 

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I sit firmly in the first category. After 12 years of an 80% average I know my limit.

"I think it's time we recognise that this segment of the market is underdeveloped"

Could you clarify this bit please? 

I'm interested, I've probably had coaching from more coaches than anyone else here, group and individual, and my progress to clays shot ratio is pretty good. I'm not very good compared to the company here because I don't shoot much. That may change, it may not. Anyway, I am a big fan of coaching, but that is my learning preference.

ehb102 said:

"I think it's time we recognise that this segment of the market is underdeveloped"

Could you clarify this bit please? 

I'm interested, I've probably had coaching from more coaches than anyone else here, group and individual, and my progress to clays shot ratio is pretty good. I'm not very good compared to the company here because I don't shoot much. That may change, it may not. Anyway, I am a big fan of coaching, but that is my learning preference.

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What I meant by that is that we need to give support and credibility (instead of sweeping derision as has been the case by some) to AA/AAA shooters who feel they have the necessary peoples skills to be able to offer coaching at sensible/affordable rates to people who want to improve. 

I understand that there are already CPSA qualified coaches as well as the more informal club level tutors who do a fair job, it's just that I feel someone who competes at registered shoots regularly and has demonstrated a high level of skill is more likely to know which buttons to press to get peoples technique/tempo/routine/etc up a level or two than those who possess a more theory based tool box. These people are out there already but it's almost as if they're keeping a low profile to avoid the sneers, they needn't do so if we showed more support.

I find this topic very interesting , because I am employed in the business of shooting tuition.

I think Hamster like myself has a very good understanding of what is actually going on, so I personally have to be careful (for a change) about what I say.

The shooting tuition business is multi-faceted , we have the well meaning friend who is a very good shot who can offer sound advice free of charge on a shoot day and we can progress . We have the instructor who lives local to a ground , is available to work , has had no training whatsoever and presses buttons . We have the CPSA or BASC qualified Instructor who is available at weekends. We have the smooth talking , charmer , 'Head Coach'  who usually only works at a ground for three months before complaints and Management sus him out . We have the exceptionally talented Champion shot who cannot teach or impart their knowledge or skill if their life depended upon it.

We also have the highly experienced , highly skilled teacher who have had their five minutes of fame , enjoy what they do , can pass on useful little tips , impart knowledge , but most of all enjoy what they do and rather than just doing it for the money , actually enjoy teaching and improving their customers and take pride in what they do .

You the customer must choose .

If I can unlock that: I think what you are saying is that there are people out there who could teach reasonable shooters how to become shooting competitors, rather than just helping them improve at shooting practice clays. I would agree with that. I always say that Coach Solomon's taught me how to compete at Sporting, and I continue to recommend him to the competitive of spirit. To be able to compete is a skill in itself, and I agree, that could acknowledged and values more.

I completely missed whichever top shot it was who was derisive about the masses, but that just shows what a goldfish bowl competitive shooting is. 

I don't know what support we can show other than recommending these coaches when the opportunity arises. 

Salopian said:

I find this topic very interesting , because I am employed in the business of shooting tuition.

I think Hamster like myself has a very good understanding of what is actually going on, so I personally have to be careful (for a change) about what I say.

The shooting tuition business is multi-faceted , we have the well meaning friend who is a very good shot who can offer sound advice free of charge on a shoot day and we can progress . We have the instructor who lives local to a ground , is available to work , has had no training whatsoever and presses buttons . We have the CPSA or BASC qualified Instructor who is available at weekends. We have the smooth talking , charmer , 'Head Coach'  who usually only works at a ground for three months before complaints and Management sus him out . We have the exceptionally talented Champion shot who cannot teach or impart their knowledge or skill if their life depended upon it.

We also have the highly experienced , highly skilled teacher who have had their five minutes of fame , enjoy what they do , can pass on useful little tips , impart knowledge , but most of all enjoy what they do and rather than just doing it for the money , actually enjoy teaching and improving their customers and take pride in what they do .

You the customer must choose .

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+1

The real problem for a student not intimately familiar with the sport (any) is sorting the available coaching talent and making some sort of reasonable choice

I have seen a AA shooter slagging a coach of for his abilities on social media because he no longer shoots comps...guess he had forgotten the coach was shooting when he was still a twinkle in his daddies eye! Problem is anybody can confront someone on social media when they would no way do the same in real life!

Different coaches for different people.  I have a friend who coached me from nothing to A class in a year.  Hes ex England Team (twice),  very young (I hate him for that), and he puts it in plain english for me.  The teaching part is the difficult bit.  Not everybody who is a top shot can teach, and not all teachers can shoot......

This lad can.  He measures lead like "straight at it"...."Shoot its Front edge"....."needs a gap"......."needs a big gap".  Once you get used to a coach....... that translates into breaks.

Geordieboy said:

He measures lead like "straight at it"...."Shoot its Front edge"....."needs a gap"......."needs a big gap".  

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Sounds ideal.  If someone tells me it's 6ft I haven't got a clue what that looks like.  I personally 'see' the measurement of lead as the gap at the end of the barrel, not the distance out at the target.

'Tis remarkable how a few words changes how you perceive the target!   I see lead at the target, but am trying to improve the cultivation of instinct and stop measuring.  I do know that you have to be deliberate on quite a lot of targets and you have to make sure you see the lead as "A Big Gap" etc.  

As you say on mans 6ft is another mans 10 ft!!