Shotkam

[Wonko the Sane]

So I see the shotkam thing as perhaps useful too for those who can see how to use it, and a great toy for making vidi's to post somewhere.  A gent I know has one, spent a few days recording and then put it away for reasons undisclosed.  I'm guessing it told him nothing he didn't already know and the vidi's were ................... well, boring.

As to coaches I believe the first consideration is what does the shooter plan to do in the sport.  For myself and my wife it was a great recreation and comps if that seemed like a reasonable path.  We had the fortunate access to a few really fine shooters who were generous with their time and sharing of experience and I pursued checking out what there was to learn from the bazillion books on the topic.  And then I came across Churchill, perceived the truth in its purest essence and that pretty well took care of things for us.  I use and recommend Mr. Churchill and would have some real suspicions about anyone who finds fault with his methods.  Recent revelations regarding process vs/ result have been informative and found to be quite useful at least for the aging and incompetent.  But that's all JMO of course and you are perfectly welcome to think otherwise.  (HAHAHAHAHA)

 

[Centrepin]

Shotkam is just one method of trying to improve.

It's not a be all end all.

Watching the posted videos on here, all you can do is pause and look. Watching in the comfort of your armchair at home on your phone or laptop is 90% different.

You can watch frame by frame each shot. If you're geeky enough you can watch the pattern develop, the difference between wad and shot and the entire process from the gun lifting to the follow through or second shot.

Below to illustrate my point I've posted a frame by frame (ish) cropped shot of a right to left crosser. 

For the total geeks, it's 21gram x 7.5s Super Steel, fired from a 2016 Miroku MK38, can't remember which barrel but the range was about 30 yards and I shoot skeet and Imp cyl. There was a stiff left to right wind causing the clay to bounce.

You can do this with misses just as well, but you need to remember the conditions, distance and all other variables. 

It is just another method, but unlike a coach which I'm absolutely not knocking, you can review this as often as you like without forgetting any salient points he/she might have said.

Personally I can learn as much by my son stood real close, (recoil close) and telling me what he sees. Ie: swing through, barrel stop, lead and so on.

















Quick edit: Sorry the first two got mixed up in posting, I'm not really a tech person

 

[jwpzx9r]

The weight is a factor but if you mount it in the correct location it's not a concern. Within 10 targets you don't notice it's there. Removing it is not an issue because when the ShotKam isn't fitted a barrel weight is.

 As a trap shooter I shoot a gun in excess of 10lbs anyway.

More than 10lbs is heavy for a trap gun is it not? Most Olympic trap guns are around 4kg any particular reason you like your gun that heavy or are you just a Geoff Capes type  :lol:

 

[Charliedog]

The weight is a factor but if you mount it in the correct location it's not a concern. Within 10 targets you don't notice it's there. Removing it is not an issue because when the ShotKam isn't fitted a barrel weight is.

 As a trap shooter I shoot a gun in excess of 10lbs anyway.

with titanium chokes, trigger and hanger maybe, only jesting

 

[Jan Powell]

More than 10lbs is heavy for a trap gun is it not? Most Olympic trap guns are around 4kg any particular reason you like your gun that heavy or are you just a Geoff Capes type  :lol:

It is and would probably more than most could manage but I'm a fairly big chap and the steadiness it offers outweighs the effort of hauling it up to my shoulder.

with titanium chokes, trigger and hanger maybe, only jesting

Correct!

 

[DavidJ]

@MartynB 

I can’t argue with that at all. Not least because I have insufficient experience to make any counter  claims, but I can actually identify with what your saying. Not the SPC so much as it’s damn near a waste of effort. For sure in a factory situation you would analyse human variances, but definitely at my early stage of shooting development, getting my “process” roughy close to that 70% you mentioned on a regular basis is proving to be more productive than fussing over little details

That though is my reason for questioning certain things. It’s actually become apparent that for me, at least for the time being, I need to filter out the “clutter” as much as I possibly can.

I’m finding for me at my stage, shooting has become more about learning about myself than pretty much anything else.

I’ve tried different chokes, SK & 1/4, 1/4 & 1/2, 14/ & 1/4 and I’ve settled recently on 1/2 & 1/2. For me that’s about not having to think about switching the barrel selector. I know 1/4 would do the job, but having the chokes a little tighter means I will need to learn to be more accurate, but won’t get totally disheartened by missing 90% with full/full.

The seeing the shot thing was a curiosity born from seeing the shot on a couple of occasions and wondering if say 3/4 & 3/4 would help me see the shot better for making lead corrections. Seems inconclusive, so I’ll stick with 1/2 & 1/2 and give it no more thought.

As it happens I’m finding some patterns in my shooting behaviours some which I believe are having a positive outcome and others a negative one.

First I’ve noticed; and since returning to shooting after lockdown, it’s become more apparent, that I often start out a bit lazy. Maybe a bit arrogant. Because I have broken some targets which I’m told are “competition deciders” and I’ve broken them repeatedly enough to have a sense that it was more than just luck. On the other-hand,  I’ve  missed so many 30 yard Crossers, teals, going away etc that it’s embarrassing. I think I’m not mentally connecting with the Clay first so little chance of visually connecting therefore. Once I get a bit miffed with myself and give myself a kick up the backside and remind myself why I’m there and what I need to be doing (the process) then it starts to come reasonably good and I’m not too far away from that 70% goal. But then towards the end of a session perhaps I’m tiring without realising. Maybe I have a miss, then I start mentally overworking it and I miss, miss, miss and miss some more. 
 

For me tinkering is temporary. It’s not part of my process, it’s part of my learning and eliminating things that maybe matter when your goal is 90% but are insignificant when your goal is consistently breaking 70%

It’s also about discovering what works for me and what doesn’t. To some extent maybe or even probably that will change over time anyway.

I’ve had nine different instructors so far. Some have offered up nuggets of gold, others have offered up in good faith things which for me and for now at least have hindered. 
 

I was told to face more square on, stand more upright. I was then told to stand more oblique and more weight forward. Doesn’t make much of a difference to me at the 70% goal. Yet a suggestion that I change my feet position on the premise that it would give me a greater range of swing sent me into a tail spin! I actually found the opposite. I think it was a placebo effect but the stance just felt so awkward it became a big distraction. So I knocked that on the head as something that doesn’t work for me, at lest for now and the fact I’ve been able to swing from over and behind my left shoulder to over and behind my right shoulder with a more natural feeling stance I think for now that’s what I’ll do and I’ll no longer give it anymore thought. One more less thing to worry about. Cartridges for me all feel the same. 21g, 28g, plastic, fibre, Hull, Express, Gamebore... so, another thing I don’t need to think about. 
Happy with how my gun fits me now. It’s comfortable. I worked on my mount and head position over lockdown. Could it be improved? Well depends upon who I ask, but I’m happy with it, so for the time being perhaps the next 1000 cartridges, I’ll not be giving that anymore thought either. 
 

Pre-shot routine? Well, I’ve given that a go too. Again, I’ve had good advice given in good faith, often conflicting. So I’ve tried whatever I’m advised and see how it works for me for now. My conclusion is that right now, I’m better off if I keep it to a minimum. Get in, see the clay, pick my hold points, visual pick up that “feel right” and get right on with it. None of that shouldering the gun, simulating the swing again and again. Works for some I’m quite sure, but not for me. Less really does mean more for me. Again, this may only be for the time being to get me to a certain level and I’m more than prepared to revisit old ideas as I learn and hopefully progress.

With regards to Shotkam;  just so this post isn’t wildly off piste, I personally don’t feel I’d benefit from it right now. I think I’d be getting information from it that I’m ill equipped to usefully understand and the five or so ounces hanging from my barrels would be a source of “Hmmm... I wonder if that shotkam is interfering with the gun balance?” thinking, when I know deep down it’s with the idiot pointing the gun where the problem lies.
 

So I’m at Sporting Targets for a couple of hours Saturday with in house instructor and again with Ed Solomons on the 22nd

The first session is to warm up the grey cells and remind myself why I’m there and what the “process” is. Then with Ed, look at perhaps one or two points that I can work on and improve.

My biggest weakness as see them are reading the target. Sometimes making a wild stab into space where I hope the target will be (due to under-thinking). Stopping the gun on occasion (over-thinking). Starting my hold point too high (bad for me) or too low (can get away with it). Moving the gun too soon or not soon enough or moving it to quickly because I haven’t connected mentally or visually.

Yet when I get my brain involved, my eyes are on the job and I let everything else take its natural course, my hand eye coordination, spatial awareness and timing can actually be quite good and the breaks are accurate and hard hitting. The problem with that can sometimes be, is believing what just happened is down to me, or trying take what came effortlessly and putting effort into repeating it and it all going tits up!

I'd say, way to many coaches. They'll end up contradicting on certain things and you'll just be overloaded. Find a coach who's methods and mechanics fit with how you process when shooting and then work with him/her. There's no point paying to see Ed and then paying for someone else to tell you different.

There's lots of info on stance but you should never need the range of swing you describe for a shot. I'd say you miss a few critical things of your routine, what method are you going to use and what lead do you think you will need. 

I'd also say that once you have received some coaching you've got to go and work on it and this is where most of fall down. We end up just turning out to shoot the next 50 or 100 birder when what would be better is to shoot 50 or 100 singles repeating the methods and moves.

As for Shotkam, it is a very good training aid but it's not about watching a shot and saying in over, under or infront, behind. For me it's about watching the whole shot back and seeing where the process to get to the lead went wrong, because more times than not the miss will be because of the process.

 

[Lloyd]

@DavidJ 

Thanks David. Perhaps I should give a deeper perspective on the number of coaches. I’ve seen Ed twice so far. Will see him again next Wednesday. 

So... how does one find the right coach if you only ever use one coach?

im new to shooting; a year in, but that itself doesn’t tell the whole story. I know of a newbie who shot near 17,000 shells in the last year. I shot less than a third of that, so I’m still trying things out and find out what works for me and what doesn’t.  I won’t continue seeing multiple coaches. As for practice, my SGC got held up in the lockdown situation, and prior to that my local firearms office had a staffing issues so have waited almost a year for my SGC. Good news on the horizon though so that practice you speak of isn’t far away now. Multiple coaches have by and large come about by wanting to shoot different targets than my usual ones  I don’t want to shoot 90Ex100 every week at the same grounds. 
 

Also, by and large, I feel I’m quite capable of processing and differentiating conflicting information without too much confusion.  

I’m confident in my abilities, I’m less confident in my consistency. I think a fair amount of those inconsistencies come down to two things. inexperience which can be fixed by more shooting and not getting the shooting mentality right which will also come with practice and learning to understand better what’s going on.

i hope by getting those things right in the next year to shoot a consistent 70% 

My worst performance to date was a 40% in some terrain that was unusual for me and was my second shooting session after lockdown. I’d normally expect around 60-65% 

getting from 70-80% is where I feel having my SGC and seeing one good coach who I get with and can get their messages nicer to me in a way I can compute, that will become increasingly necessary 

 

[DavidJ]

@Lloyd

I wasn't aware you didn't have your ticket yet and as you now say you've probably used shooting with a coach as a way to kill two birds...

Personally I think you need to find a coach that you can relate to and then work with them and their methods giving them a chance to get the info across and improve you. 

I'm more than sure you can process conflicting info but while your in a phase of training with one coach, why even let it in. 

As with everything, consistency comes with repetition of the correct methods. I try and plan every shot, however like a lot of us, having the discipline to do this every time is one of the factors that make some better than others.

 

[Lloyd]

@DavidJ

My first coach had become my “regular coach”. He had a way of communicating that other coaches at other grounds just didn’t have. We gelled really well and he’s been teaching my son to alarmingly good effect.

The only issue there has been he telling me he can’t teach me any more than he already has as he believes I have the ability and skills, I just need the practice. I’m always a bit cautious about folks blowing smoke up my bum, so another possible advantage of using different coaches?

He is a very good teacher, according to my girlfriend (she is a senior teacher), but if I had “all the skills and ability”, then I’m not so sure these other coaches I’ve tried would have given their little snippets of information, that I may otherwise not have come across that have proven helpful. 

I’m a firm believer in the idea we never stop learning. I’m also a firm believer that in activities that are skill/craft/art based, there is usually more than one way to be successful. Matching the right method to the individual being a key ingredient to success. Unlike say the sciences where facts are largely indisputable.

“Discipline” is proving to be a real challenge for me. I often find I start a shooting session a touch lazily and make silly mistakes on easy targets (although I’m learning there really are no easy targets)

Anthony Mataresse Jr’s words are ringing ever louder in my plugged up ears “you’re missing because you’re either being too careless or too careful “

I’m not disagreeing with what you’re advising, but neither do I completely agree

 

[jwpzx9r]

The number of times I have been told you are behind, in front , below, above or combinations. In my opinion that is what a shotkam does... what I want to know is why? I reckon a good coach will be able to tell you that but I doubt a shotkam will. I may be wrong I have never used one and really have no idea how you interpret the videos. I don't see foot position in any of those videos or head position or gun mount position these are things a coach would see and if they were wrong would be a vital clue in understanding what may have caused you to miss a target.

 

[Lloyd]

I really don’t get the foot position thing to be honest. Trying to fit into a specific mould of a specific coach has hindered more than helped for me. I find my natural position and can articulate around sufficiently. If I need to position for a second target, I can move my feet, but always go for what feels right. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I really don’t get the foot position thing to be honest. Trying to fit into a specific mould of a specific coach has hindered more than helped for me. I find my natural position and can articulate around sufficiently. If I need to position for a second target, I can move my feet, but always go for what feels right. 

Foot position is important! It determines just how much swing you have from one side to another, very important if you have two targets different and don't know which one you are going to get, or for sport shooters a pair of targets that are crossing. If your feet are only right for one of the two targets you are going to struggle. Just because it feels right does not mean it is, it could be because you are favouring the target that is causing you most trouble... you hit that one but miss the other because of this. Try shooting OT with your feet favouring that troublesome extreme right hand target... only to get the hard left hand target come out! Foot position would be less important if you knew what the target was going to be but still important to make sure you have enough swing to get in front of the target.

 

[Lloyd]

@jwpzx9r

That is what what I’ve been told several times. And I will concede that if I give it a try... small issue first of working out who’s “it” of the conflicting ideas is the “correct” one, then I may just get used to it and stop thinking about it. That certainly worked out with keeping my head level and turning my nose in to ensure my eye was over the rib, but I’ve been told that’s the way to do it and I’ve been told it’s because the gun doesn’t fit me. 
I decided to alter the cast and turn my nose in as a compromise and I’ve got used to it. But is it correct? Well, depends upon who you ask of course.  So, that one coach.... we’ll, yeah, so which one coach? Which one coach is right? The could both be right, both be wrong, but they’re simply passing on to me what they learned and has worked for them.

I’m  fiercely independent in my decisions. In life and in work I hater a consensus and prototype ideas to learn for myself and often end up with a hybrid of some sort. 
 

Is it the right way? Well, often, no. But if you keep prototyping and keep learning even it works out ok. Not the definitive perfect, but ok.

I’d  happily concede fully on this foot position thing but the opinions are quite different, my “prototyping” has given me results from a foot position that some coaches have said it’s fine. One coach, a very respected one says, he’s not overly concerned about me not having a textbook stance.

As for swing, I can only say this concept of running out of swing is something I haven’t experienced. 
 

As I’ve said previously, I can swing from over my left shoulder to over my right and can break and have broken targets at those extremes of movement, when having missed at the “natural, unwound body position” that’s, carried on swinging and broken the target on the second barrel at the extremity of articulation.  

Im not saying I’d make a habit of it mind you. 
 

For that second target acquisition, I’ve found if I take the time to demount, turn a little (moving my feet) and re mount, it slows everything down for me, takes the panic out of it and  I’ve got a better second target hit rate doing that. 
 

if I keep the gun in my shoulder and l keep my feet as they are, I can end up with too much time on my hands (I know, sounds contradictory to slowing things down right? But this is all in my head) 

 

[jwpzx9r]

For that second target acquisition, I’ve found if I take the time to demount, turn a little (moving my feet) and re mount, it slows everything down for me, takes the panic out of it and  I’ve got a better second target hit rate doing that. 

I think that is fine if you have time to do that. If you tried to do that in OT for example where you could be faced with a possible 45 degree right or left target it is not possible to try to compensate for incorrect foot position in the way you suggest, surely the same applies on an on report pair? The targets cannot be moving so slowly that you actually have time to change your stance?

edit.

Of course I only shoot trap, sound the C and silence the T  :lol: , you just do not have time to do anything other than see the target and shoot it... and you do not know what it will be so you do need to be in the correct position to shoot any of the presentations, although it is said the really top shots seem to be able to know the last five. Its a fine balance a right-handed shooter with have more troubles with an extreme right hand target so foot position may favour that side even though left is possible so it is important not to be too greedy.

 

[Lloyd]

I think that is fine if you have time to do that. If you tried to do that in OT for example where you could be faced with a possible 45 degree right or left target it is not possible to try to compensate for incorrect foot position in the way you suggest, surely the same applies on an on report pair? The targets cannot be moving so slowly that you actually have time to change your stance?

For sure, there are definitely sim pairs I have come across that don’t give much time to change feet position. I’ve not come across many OR pairs that wouldn’t afford a smidgen of time, but I don’t always move foot position as often the pairs kill points are close enough that I feel I have sufficient articulation to cover it.

maybe I’m not explaining myself very well here. It happens!

So if I have a sim pair that doesn’t give much time and the kill points are quite far apart on the horizontal axis, I’d take one of two decisions, inexperience not withstanding of course. 

I could decide which target is the hardest to set up for and position for that and compromise on the easier one, or I could split the difference.

now, that said, I’d wager those that have pulled me up on my stance would say it’s wrong for the first target. That is to say, what I feel is optimal stance for a particular target or a single even, some would say stance is incorrect 

ill illustrate. Below pictures are simulating my preferred and as advised stance with the floorboards pointing to the imaginary kill point.

top one my preferred position. 

the next two, examples of advice if been given by AA and AAA shooters/coaches 
 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Well of course I don't shoot sporting targets so I cannot really comment but as a general observation all will work depending on where you are going to shoot the target... but more importantly from my point of view how many possible targets you could get. With that in mind I would go with foot position one or three with a little bit of tweeking it gives you a good chance of hitting both right and left targets as well as straight away targets. Foot position two is new to me I could not shoot that way. There is no good reason for a sporting shooter not to get his footing right he knows what is coming, a trap shooter does not and so some will compromise to perhaps favour an extreme target.

This video link  shows what could be adopted by any shooter as a basic stance... as the title of the video states  :lol:

 

[Lloyd]

@jwpzx9r

Number two was “taught “ to me by a coach who himself was taught by one of the greatest English sporting/FITASC shooters in living history. 

Russell Mark and his daughter are fantastic

so much detail and clear explanation.

His recommendation is similar to my preference though I generally have my feet spaced more widely apart. I like to feel a bit of a draught!

 

[DavidJ]

I can't tell from any of those photos if your shooting to the left or right. I'm assuming your KP is along the T&G joint

 

[timps]

Holy thread drift  getting back to the shot cam closest I’ve ever had to using one is shooting the clays one handed and holding my Iphone Xs set in slow motion in the other. No idea what it taught me apart from I can hit clays one handed holding an Iphone but it did make an interesting Facebook post.  

I suppose shot cam could be used to settle I saw a bit chip off debates.

I did look into them but I really couldn’t see the benefit to me, I would definitely give one a go on sale or return but not outright buy one to see if I liked it.  To me it’s a bit like Arrow Lasershot always wanted one, nearly bought one, got to borrow one and all it told me was my gun was shooting where I was looking which I already knew.

Back to thread drift  yep you are right you have to try different coaches to see which one you gel with however you do have to stick with one once found.

Regarding the one telling you he can’t teach you any more than he already has as he believes you have the ability and skills and just need the practice. I get his point, as I assume with the lack of a SGC you haven’t got your own gun and cannot practice on your own, the basics are easily taught then you need to go into the wild an practice on your own. Most coaches will send you away for a bit to see what you have actually learnt to see if it has sunk in or you have gone back to your old ways developed new faults.  

Regarding foot position are you using the same gun with each coach ?

Opening or closing your stance can help with cast issues if the guns are different with different stock dimensions then  it could explain the discrepancies. If not then ignore me

 

[Lloyd]

@DavidJ 

Yes. the floor boards are in the direction of the KP. I shoot from the left shoulder, so in the photos I'm shooting to the right. Though from some of my misses I may as well be shooting behind me for all the difference it would make!

@timps

I do have my own gun which I normally use which is kept at the grounds where said instructor is resident. When shooting at other grounds, I have used other guns which are always too long and too flat. My own gun had the butt pad removed and a comb raiser fitted. 

I've definitely had the experience of instructors getting me to change my stance to fit the gun and I'm OK with that. I don't feel it made a huge difference to my overall hit rate to be honest.

I have even shot right handed guns an inch too long and 1/2" too low. I shot 40% hit rate like that but my misses I feel were largely down to me, not the gun fit.

On the other hand I shot my first 25 straight quite early on with a 26" barreled beretta with a 13" LoP, gun down, clays sent from random traps, presentations unseen. This was an experiment from said instructor to see if I could shoot "instinctively". 

The trouble is, I really do have a hard time believing that such a way of shooting will get more than 25 straight on anything other than 30 yard birds and I rather consider it a bit of a fluke.

The good news is I have spoken to the firearms officer and home visits have resumed, so the SGC shouldn't be too long now