Setting the bar in ESP

[Berkshire Breaker]

340 people and all wrapped up by 5pm. 

How you can say Wlss has no experience in setting shoots is idiotic. 

The shoot was fine, it ran smoothly and had catering inside the house and on the ground. Toilets all over the venue and signage Stevie wonder could follow.

You got around 14 stands without getting muddy or hit by clays. 

Months of prep went into that and you disregard it over a harder than average course. 

very well put.

The only thing that wasn't good was the weather, it was freezing. But how many shoots put on a coffee stool half way round with a gazebo and gas heater so you could get warm for a while?

WLSS may not host many registered shoots, but you can not fault how that shoot was organised and run. Yes ok the targets might of been tough, but I still honestly think the weather had an impact on the low scores! Hard to keep focused when you froze to the bone. There is no way that course was as hard as the scores suggested. I'm in no way saying it was easy before I get throttled.

In my honest opinion the worst Premier League shoot I've attended was Churchills last year. I got there at 9am and didn't finish until 1 with only cold water stand, very few toilets and the layout was set in such a way that when one stand had to stop 2 or 3 others had to aswell. They had hardly any trap fillers which added to the problem.

West London just toughened up the course because so many people moaned it was to easy last time. 

People don't realise the time and effort put into these shoots and it's a real shame to see people insulting grounds who have actually done a very good job.

 

[Will Hewland]

I was trying to get in this week, to shoot the course again, because it was a real test at a great ground. Sadly they are taking it down on Wednesday and I could not get there before Thursday. But as a product aimed at a wide audience most felt that they got it wrong, last year and this - and only for a very simple reason, no balance. There is great subtlety between a bad shoot (this was a great shoot in many respects) and an inappropriate shoot for the purpose. I spoke to WLSS staff who said they felt it was set for a 94. It wasnt. They were unable to judge it. They also did nothing for the beginners, by having no easy stands at all and usually having two tough targets on every stand, so 0, 1 or 2 was a very common score. You can have a shoot that will likely end up with a 92 HG, but that doesn't stop you including a part of the course for the least experienced.

Anyway, that's my last post on the subject. Remember, the least experienced shots rarely feel confident enough to comment, so naturally you will hear most from the better shots who were better placed to cope with and enjoy the course..

 

[Darkside]

The thing is Will...we are mostly hearing from you (AA so supposed "better shot who were better placed to cope") moaning ant every turn about how difficult ANY stiff shoot is, not just the WLSS one, man up!!! 

Owl's Lodge hurt your ego mid week, get over it and count yourself lucky that you live in the only place in the world that has that quality of mid week esp competition!!! WLSS then hurt your already bruised ego some more...cold and 300+ entry's would not help, but do you need to go on and on and on about it?!?! Oh, that's right...it wasn't up to your beloved Churchill's standard, so no use :baby:

 

[Will Hewland]

Darkside, have a day off from the macho crap. So if the HG was 50 does that make it even better? At which point is it too much? And I'm not talking about ME although thanks for being fixated.. I'm talking about course balance needed for the mass audience. They got it wrong last year for being too easy, which is the same error. 

Really, over and out now..

 

[Parcours pete]

I didn't shoot wlss sat so can't really 

comment on the severity of the clays 

but a good friend did and finished 87 

he just said it was a very good shoot stiff yes but didn't complain 

And before anyone jumps in with well he's shot an 87 and he's AA he's not going to complain 

I do know what work he's been putting in coaching he's been having by one of the best out there and the miles he's travelling all over the country to take In new shoots etc 

we get out of this life what we put intto it in my experience I think too many people expect instant success 

these days without doing an apprenticeship so to speak 

regardless of class if you felt you shot badly think to yourself why !! 

Book a lesson with a coach or take on harder grounds to stretch yourself now and again 

reading Berkshire breakers post about a tent with heaters in and hot drinks and plenty of toilets around 

I think they should be applauded on 

their efforts 

casting my mind back to last year the toughest shoot I shot would have been the selection shoot at park lodge I was more pissed off that I hadn't risen to the challenge of the targets think I finished mid 60 s a disaster for me with a 5 hour drive there and back and an overnight stay 

my point is you got to work hard at it 

look at yourself when you fail not come up with silly excuses or blame the grounds I think the system works well and the majority of grounds set 

sensible enjoyable courses people will allways vote with their feet so it will be the ground that loses out in the end if they fail to entertain or reinvest In equipment facilities etc 

 

[Darkside]

Darkside, have a day off from the macho crap.

Its not macho to ask a grown man to stop crying because he's not as good as his ego would like him to be :baby:

So if the HG was 50 does that make it even better?

Now you are being absurd!!! High gun was 89, nothing like 50!!!  :blink:

At which point is it too much?

Probably much harder than the shoot in question is pushing it,  B)

And I'm not talking about ME... I'm talking about course balance needed for the mass audience.

When you moan and whine and cry and complain and whinge about every shoot that's even two stands on the harder side...it sounds like you are talking about YOU and not the 'mass audience'...

Will, just stop being so nit picking all the time, put some your efforts into your shooting instead

 

[Chris Bubb]

Simple Phil, because not everybody shoots them, so those that don't get judged more easily by CPSA and get over-promoted in classification. The whole point is that a classification system identifies groups of people of similar ability. That only works if the shooters are competing at similar levels of difficulty at their different shoots. When you compare car 0-60mph acceleration times, the tests are done on flat ground with no wind. A Fiesta 1.1 would have the same rating as an M3 BMW if you allowed Ford to do their test down a ski-jump.

Yes, yes, of course, all serious shooters shoot a huge variety of shoots so it all averages out. We are talking the principles of "what if" a whole series of super tough events sprung up and how would it imbalance things, that's all.

Will, if you did not allow the tough shoots to be registered, then you would have to do the same for the softer shoots. Sorry ignore my post, just read through the whole thread and seen Ed has already said the same.

 

[move-mount-miss]

I really can't believe that a thread can go from someone asking if all shoots should be tougher to that same person being accused of moaning a whining because all shoots are too tough!!

 

[MJJ]

I think the quality of targets is paramount, regardless of how hard a course is. One has to remember that scores in the high 90's are the norm now, and even the lower classes are scoring more. If shooters are raising there game, then the course setters have every right to do the same.

 

[Hamster]

I think the quality of targets is paramount, regardless of how hard a course is. One has to remember that scores in the high 90's are the norm now, and even the lower classes are scoring more. If shooters are raising there game, then the course setters have every right to do the same.

The cut off point for AAA has hovered miraculously consistently between 86.3 - 86.9 for the last 10 years. This is just a hobby horse for a few usual suspects who simply will not get their head around the fact that averages and classes are based around AVERAGES and that making targets harder OR easier will not make one iota of difference in who ends up where. 

If you shoot scores that are in the top whatever percentage you will still end up in THAT group and be awarded the SAME class. 

If you like hard targets no problem, set mega hard shoots and watch your livelihood disappear, if you like to shoot mega hard shoots no problem just buy yourself a 410 and teach the rest of us a lesson.

 

[chippy]

Brilliant idea hammy 410 for AAA. 28g for AA. 20g for A. 12g for B. And 10 bore  with 2oz loads for C classes. 

Seeing as I don't fancy my chances against George even with a 410, I suggest a no3 garden gun for previous championship winners.

 

[Hamster]

Brilliant idea hammy 410 for AAA. 28g for AA. 20g for A. 12g for B. And 10 bore  with 2oz loads for C classes. 

Bigger the balls smaller the calibre, soon stop all the bravado. 

 

[Aspire]

I want to know why it's 'bravado' and 'macho' and 'billy big bollocks' to enjoy feeling challenged by a tough course? There has to be something for everybody,yes. But these days there generally isn't! The targets aren't being set for the top shooters. Let's say you have 2 or 3 big targets for the better shot (optimistic of late) That's means you have 21 or 22 targets that just in reality need a bit of concentration and the will not to die of boredom! So courses are actually being set for the lower classes to be challenged a little,but the better shots to be challenged with not missing at all! It's becoming like skeet - you miss one and you pretty much know it's all over! Attitudes toward improving,rather than shooting big scores,need to change!

 

[Hamster]

I want to know why it's 'bravado' and 'macho' and 'billy big bollocks' to enjoy feeling challenged by a tough course? There has to be something for everybody,yes. But these days there generally isn't! The targets aren't being set for the top shooters. Let's say you have 2 or 3 big targets for the better shot (optimistic of late) That's means you have 21 or 22 targets that just in reality need a bit of concentration and the will not to die of boredom! So courses are actually being set for the lower classes to be challenged a little,but the better shots to be challenged with not missing at all! It's becoming like skeet - you miss one and you pretty much know it's all over! Attitudes toward improving,rather than shooting big scores,need to change!

Numbers don't lie Wayne, if you hit more than 86.8 in the last qualifying period you'd have been among the top 5% in ESP - that is 13 misses out of 100 for the top band or more than 1 miss per stand, hardly a walk in the park. 

The question of how far and how hard shoots need to be set has already been answered organically, look at Steve's shoots where they're often won with a 96 or even more, many other grounds around the country have similar winning scores and they're all hugely well attended. 

Churchill is not unique in producing high winning scores. 

 

[Parcours pete]

I want to know why it's 'bravado' and 'macho' and 'billy big bollocks' to enjoy feeling challenged by a tough course? There has to be something for everybody,yes. But these days there generally isn't! The targets aren't being set for the top shooters. Let's say you have 2 or 3 big targets for the better shot (optimistic of late) That's means you have 21 or 22 targets that just in reality need a bit of concentration and the will not to die of boredom! So courses are actually being set for the lower classes to be challenged a little,but the better shots to be challenged with not missing at all! It's becoming like skeet - you miss one and you pretty much know it's all over! Attitudes toward improving,rather than shooting big scores,need to change!

Well said best post of 2016 !! 

 

[DolphinCTC]

I don't see any difference in setting up a registered shoot to any other. You need to get a balance and try to have something for all abilities because you are getting a wide range of abilities attending. On the day the weather can play havoc with the course setters plans making what was intended to be a medium difficulty stand into something quite different! They key thing is to get good variety through the shoot and keep it entertaining. I change the layout at our shoot every Sunday, not just tweeked, completely different to the previous shoot. I have to admit that in doing this and trying to make it interesting I sometimes err on the more difficult side but at least if you have a shocker you know it will be a different set up next time!

 

[Aspire]

Numbers don't lie Wayne, if you hit more than 86.8 in the last qualifying period you'd have been among the top 5% in ESP - that is 13 misses out of 100 for the top band or more than 1 miss per stand, hardly a walk in the park. 

The question of how far and how hard shoots need to be set has already been answered organically, look at Steve's shoots where they're often won with a 96 or even more, many other grounds around the country have similar winning scores and they're all hugely well attended. 

Churchill is not unique in producing high winning scores. 

I never mentioned Churchills. I did hit more than 86.8 in the last qualifying period. If you walk away from any shoot with a 90+ and feel you've shot terribly! It was too easy! End of. 

 

[Rob C]

I find it hard to believe that some of the better shots AA and above would not want to be challenged by stiffer targets on  a regular basis.

It seems like the thought of lower averages would be a blow to the ego.

would'nt know about that never had a high one . But still would prefer lower scores with better targets .

 

[Rosso]

I find it hard to believe that some of the better shots AA and above would not want to be challenged by stiffer targets on  a regular basis.

It seems like the thought of lower averages would be a blow to the ego.

would'nt know about that never had a high one . But still would prefer lower scores with better targets .

Better targets don't always equall lower scores. The standard of shooting today is very high the best shots get good scores everywhere and fair play to them they work hard at it. You never hear them complain. You should always set shoots as comps that challenge everybody. A high standard for every one. If the lower classes can't hit them then it drives them to improve.

 

[chippy]

 If the lower classes can't hit them then it drives them to improve.

Maybe some of them but a lot of them vote with their feet and shoot somewhere else. Ground owners know this and they are not stupid.