Riddle me ree

[Clynt]

Do the CPSA publish the prize fund as a  list, of who won what ? in each class ? for all placed prize winners ?

 

[Simbo]

And I wonder why so many have left this site. Time to fly. 

That deserves a red card!

 

[Ashley]

As a slight aside to this burning question, but along the same lines..........

Aaron Harvey (at this point I will make it clear I don't know him or think anyone should necessarily stand up for him, I'm sure he's able to do this, but it is to illustrate a point I made earlier) shot the equal highest score in the 75 bird final along with the eventual winner. In my book that should make him second overall, but read on.

He (A.H.) now has to win the shoot for a second time, (or is it third now?) all be it with his score of 68 added to his shoot off totals, but he ends up in third place and wins 250 cartridges (according to the CPSA website).

Now, if he had stayed in his lettered class (AA) he would have won the "Hatsun", which I presume to be a "Hatsan" shotgun, as the highest scoring AA shooter. Certainly worth more than the cost of 250 cartridges.

Is he gutted, you'll have to ask him, but I think he's been shafted!

What do you think?

Personally I cannot and would not compete under these rules. They are so obviously focussed on the "upper eschelon" of shooters that the ordinary guy or girl on a lucky streak would never stand a look in. Fixed or what?

In my opinion, all this changed after Robert Calton, then only 16 or 17? in 1982 won the British. I remember clearly at the time there was much sour grapes that the established "names" had had their Championship taken from them by some young upstart. Not taking anything away from Robert Calton who must have shot out of his skin that day, but that was the last time an unexpected shooter won the British.

As for the "Super Final" concept being set ridiculously hard, with scores into the 30's ex 75! Demoralising, devastating or plain disgusting? What is that all about? No need Course Setters, no need! But I will tell you what it's all about. Set really hard you will never get a "lesser" shooter hit many with any consistency, but the tops boys and girls, (who shoot this sort of thing and rightly so to be ready for anything) will always rise to the top, again, reserving "their" championship for themselves.

Conspiracy theory? You work it out.

while I agree with most of what you said Ian, I suspect that (AH) preferred to have the cartridges, as the hatsans only cost about £50 to produce, and would be of far more use to him

 

[move-mount-miss]

Aaron also received 500 shells for winning Juniors.

 

[Ian Lawrence]

Aaron also received 500 shells for winning Juniors.

He's a Junior too? Well done that Lad!

But that's also another topic for discussion. How can you be in one class, then another, then another.?

Too many bites of the cherry. Why not nominate what class you want to shoot in before you start (providing you are eligible) and stick to it.

I, myself only qualify for one possible class at the moment as far as I know. But if you were Junior, and female, would you be eligible for Open, Junior, Junior Ladies and Ladies prizes? Sometimes one person is going to claim all the prizes. Is that really fair on those others in those categories that have shot well?

This topic has made me really grumpy!!

I agree Ashley, Hatsans are a pile of Poo, but surely worth more then a slab of cartridges?

 

[cjc]

There was also a cash prize fund for this shoot, think the overall high gun received somewhere around £1200, think Aaron  received around the £600 mark for third overall, so he did win more for coming third than winning his lettered class as ur lucky if u can get £300 for a hatsan!

As for the final 75 birds being too tough, from someone who actually shot it yesterday it was not overly tough, nothing at extreme range and 90 percent of targets showing full face, the scores were prob a bit low because of the nerves factor of a major champs and on that note surely we want the final of the Britsh Open our flagship domestic event to be a bit more challenging and special than your run of the mill Sunday registered!

 

[tiptop]

Right here we go, and before anyone gets to pikey about it I am not trying to take anything away from any of the shooters here. They have all shot well, some above and beyond expectations, so lets get that clear from the start.

Ian is the only person that is getting anywhere near it. So here goes.

1. How can you win something you have not qualified for?....Answer. Enter the CPSA British open.

You run a competition that involves 4 days of qualifications. This involves different classes and categories. So everybody turns up day after day and people qualify and get put in their CLASS/CATEGORY THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY QUALIFIED FOR by the so called governing body. So on finals day would you not expect the people that have qualified in their class/category to be shooting in that class or category (yes/no). Everyone turns up to shoot, eyeing up the opposition in your squad,class OR category and off we go. Everyone returns, results are done and you have put the highest score in, in your class. But hold on you haven't one the gold medal in that class because someone that DID NOT QUALIFY TO SHOOT THAT CLASS, BUT QUALIFIED IN A CATEGORY HAS SHOT A HIGHER SCORE. Ok they may be the same grade shooter AAA, AA, A,B,C  or whatever, but THEY NEVER QUALIFIED TO SHOOT IN THAT CLASS. One minute they are a category shooter(by daily qualification) the next they are a class shooter. To me this is totally wrong, and it makes a mockery of the whole qualification process. 

And that is how it is done.

2. What is missing..............This one is a bit easier...Answer, The results for the SENIOR CLASS.

Yes peeps there was actually a SENIORS CLASS  this year. There were 12 qualifiers for the senior class mainly AAA,AA shooters. But guess what there are no results for this category, no winners. The more cynical among us might say was this a category put in place to make sure that there were plenty of top names there, just in case by some fluke they never made it through their class?

Just my thoughts.

 

[Chris Bubb]

That makes a lot more sense, thanks for explaining. I have no idea how they come up with that format, to be honest I can't see it makes any sense at all. 

 

[Simbo]

Right here we go, and before anyone gets to pikey about it I am not trying to take anything away from any of the shooters here. They have all shot well, some above and beyond expectations, so lets get that clear from the start.

Ian is the only person that is getting anywhere near it. So here goes.

1. How can you win something you have not qualified for?....Answer. Enter the CPSA British open.

You run a competition that involves 4 days of qualifications. This involves different classes and categories. So everybody turns up day after day and people qualify and get put in their CLASS/CATEGORY THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY QUALIFIED FOR by the so called governing body. So on finals day would you not expect the people that have qualified in their class/category to be shooting in that class or category (yes/no). Everyone turns up to shoot, eyeing up the opposition in your squad,class OR category and off we go. Everyone returns, results are done and you have put the highest score in, in your class. But hold on you haven't one the gold medal in that class because someone that DID NOT QUALIFY TO SHOOT THAT CLASS, BUT QUALIFIED IN A CATEGORY HAS SHOT A HIGHER SCORE. Ok they may be the same grade shooter AAA, AA, A,B,C  or whatever, but THEY NEVER QUALIFIED TO SHOOT IN THAT CLASS. One minute they are a category shooter(by daily qualification) the next they are a class shooter. To me this is totally wrong, and it makes a mockery of the whole qualification process. 

And that is how it is done.

2. What is missing..............This one is a bit easier...Answer, The results for the SENIOR CLASS.

Yes peeps there was actually a SENIORS CLASS  this year. There were 12 qualifiers for the senior class mainly AAA,AA shooters. But guess what there are no results for this category, no winners. The more cynical among us might say was this a category put in place to make sure that there were plenty of top names there, just in case by some fluke they never made it through their class?

Just my thoughts.

Looking forward to next months bumper issue of PULL magazine!

 

[tiptop]

That makes a lot more sense, thanks for explaining. I have no idea how they come up with that format, to be honest I can't see it makes any sense at all. 

To be honest I thought that the qualification thing would have stopped all the 2 bites of the cherry stuff, class /category jumping and all that because you have now had to qualify to shoot. Obviously not, to me it makes it even worse.

 

[dashman1]

total farce the more raffle. tickets you buy the better the competition. Run by the boys for the boys or could we say its a re entry joke

 

[Ian Lawrence]

There was also a cash prize fund for this shoot, think the overall high gun received somewhere around £1200, think Aaron  received around the £600 mark for third overall, so he did win more for coming third than winning his lettered class as ur lucky if u can get £300 for a hatsan!

As for the final 75 birds being too tough, from someone who actually shot it yesterday it was not overly tough, nothing at extreme range and 90 percent of targets showing full face, the scores were prob a bit low because of the nerves factor of a major champs and on that note surely we want the final of the Britsh Open our flagship domestic event to be a bit more challenging and special than your run of the mill Sunday registered!

Thanks for that information. We are not normally privvy to that. I wonder why the full prize given is not disclosed by the CPSA. Perhaps "Cash" is a dirty word today?

However, your interpretation of the 75 birds not being overly tough, obviously I can't comment on this directly as I did not shoot it or see the targets, but the comments I have heard from others who did shoot it disputes this. One shooter I know personally has had their confidence knocked that they are reluctant to get out to shoot a competition next time out, preferring to shoot a practice to see if they still can hit anything.

Looking at the statistics (as I do) I would put forward some interesting facts. Lowest score from  a AA shooter - 38 ex 75. Other AA's in the 40's. G Moore AAA 49. J Wells AAA 50. E Solomons AAA (FITASC World Champion) 52.G Stirzaker AAA 56. All well known names on the circuit, and each capable of winning a shoot outright. I guess these guys must have had a dose of the nerves of the big competition too? Somehow I think not.

It does never cease to amaze me though at the number of shooters who attend this event that are unaware of the prize fund structure and how it is favouring a small group of regular shooters. Hell! Most of the participants don't even know the rules of English Sporting in their entirety and yet are shooting week in, week out. I suppose it's like the offside rule in football. Lots of misinterpretation there, and if you don't know, you make it up! The feeling of being cheated out of a placing leaves an awful sour taste in the mouth. It happened to me once, but it will never be given the opportunity again.

It would appear that a few people like Tiptop and myself are the only ones who are principled enough not to take part in an event with confusion and unfairness at its core, and stay away until fairness is restored. If only the masses would realise that they are funding an elite few by their patronage of these events.

Each to their own however, you make your decisions and I will make mine. It is good to have enlightened a few by revealing this though. It's almost as interesting to see who's not adding to the discussion too.

Rosso's comment about people leaving the forum is not far from the truth. There have been some very experienced and knowledable people on here in the past that have either left the forum publically, or just drifted away. It is a real shame as they have clearly been hounded by the majority that "know better". Obviously you have to identify the ones who do know what they are talking about, but when that is clear, and to paraphrase the great Alf Garnett, "if you shut up and listen, you might just learn something!"

 

[MJJ]

It seems a lot of 'big' shoots have gone this way over the years- total farce! You either win it in your class or you don't. Having a second round to see who wins after you 'have won your class' makes a mockery of shooting it. Nothing wrong with a shoot-off for tied scores, as it should be. Will your normal registered shoots go the same way? Shoot 99, sorry mate you have not won yet, theres another round to shoot at the end. It appears that everything is the same these days, all those at the top only do things to benefit themselves and shaft the ordinary man. Oh well rant over.

 

[Ian Lawrence]

It seems a lot of 'big' shoots have gone this way over the years- total farce! You either win it in your class or you don't. Having a second round to see who wins after you 'have won your class' makes a mockery of shooting it. Nothing wrong with a shoot-off for tied scores, as it should be. Will your normal registered shoots go the same way? Shoot 99, sorry mate you have not won yet, theres another round to shoot at the end. It appears that everything is the same these days, all those at the top only do things to benefit themselves and shaft the ordinary man. Oh well rant over.

Yup! What he said!  :smile:

 

[Darkside]

As far as the British open goes, it was transparently clear that the 120 bird 'open' was just the qualifying round to get you into the Sunday 75 bird final. I was happy to travel 300 miles on the Thursday to have a punt at qualifying for the Sunday final, knowing full well Thursday was a qualifier, knowing full well I'd probably have to shoot 100+ In A class to stand a chance of going through...I didn't shoot my first 8 until  stand 10, had a quick count up, realised I had to keep shooting 7's or 8's to be over 100 and shot 5 5 4 on the next three stands which was criminal!!! Good shoot, good format, learned a few things on the way round...I'll be back for another crack next year!!! 

Its amazing how small clays can look when you put yourself under a bit of pressure...that would have a big part to play in a lot of the poor scores!!!

 

[Parcours pete]

Darkside 

very well summed up my sentiments exactly 

it seems a few people have it all worked out how it should work when I don't think there is a straight 

forward Answer 

problem being the weather in this country never being the same on any given day 

this was probably the first major for a long time not that weather affected 

do people want to travel 300 miles on there chosen day and it's pissing down with 30 mile an hour winds

knowing theve not a cat in hells chance because joe blogs in there class shot the day before in perfect conditions 

on the other hand as has happened this year people shoot well on their given day and come no where in the final

my mate was second in B class all week and ended up second from bottom after final 75 

i haven't heard him moan once about targets or format just gutted he didn't do better on the day 

people knocking the final targets is short sighted same for everbody and your not taking in to account nerves 

expectation etc 

well done cpsa and Steve Lovatt for a cracking round of targets keep up the good work 

Also Steve brightwell for winning 

so when someone comes up with the perfect format that keeps everbody happy and can order perfect weather 

all week please let the forum and cpsa know I'm sure they love to take it on board !!!

 

[Will Hewland]

Thanks Pete. You saved me having to post something similar.

 

[Parcours pete]

Will your welcome 

I've been on the receiving end twice over the years when it used to have a final qualifying day

leading C and A or whatever I was in all week then fluffing up on finals day yes it hurts and cost me 

a lot of prize money at the time but you got to pick yourself back up move on and use the experience 

that's what I told my mate in B class I think he's on his third box of Kleenex poor bugger . 

 

[Jim Wheeler]

Thanks Pete. You saved me having to post something similar.

cannot agree more.  

i have shot 200 clay ESP over 2 days years ago,, the main aim of which was to get into the `super six` final,, managed that once !  to get to that point is like winning for a lot of people.

my opinion of the British Open is that is the fairest way to even up the scores,  unless you prefer a lucky dip ? if your a consistent shooter where is the problem ?

 

[Will Hewland]

Personally, I think the BO or EO should be a small event for the elite! Tin hat on! Effectively, the finals day we just had, but with qualifying rounds (single day events) from different regions that then puts together the big finals day a few weeks later. Nobody would bleat about it then, because they would have that feel of a new event and not associate their qualifying score so much. We all shoot poorly one weekend then well the next, but are able to separate the experiences.