Lead ban announcement for live quarry shooting

[jonz]

Can't possibly be true that lead from shot will not be the death of evreyone and its undeniable that steel is the wonder alternative,just ask @lloyd he has a direct line to all the experts and world champoins!

And I think he must be related to Diane Abbott because he has the same level of intelligence

 

[Lloyd]

@jwpzx9r “Back issues of the Beano” made me chuckle that did. 
 

On a serious note, for sure science and engineering aren’t infallible. You must know more than many that a 2D culture using cells from a hamster can’t hope to accurately replicate what happens in the human body. Of course it it does progress beyond the Petrie dish and is tested etc, but we only need look at Thalidomide to know how flawed things can be.

someone put over much more eloquently than I that whilst science may be true, partially true or even totally wrong, if the public at large as one person put it, believe whatever  they’re told, then that’s what you’re up against and I happen to agree with the commentator that going up against that is a big ask. 
 

for sure the ‘David and Goliath’ story can happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it. 
 

So, if the unpalatable is inevitable, then getting on board earlier might be the way to go. I believe it is and of course others believe otherwise and in their context I’m in the minority.

The message from the cartridge manufacturers outline their business and management difficulties given the current position and clearly see the move by BASC et.al as disruption. 
 

that said, it can be the case that such disruption can accelerate the developments required to fulfil the gap between what is feasible now to what is possible in the future. 
 

things always change and we don’t always feel comfortable with them 

maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong, but change does come and there are always solutions (and compromises) if you work at it hard enough 

 

[JoeHale]

I don't doubt what you are saying BUT in 11 months time the UK will cease membership of the EU so this seems, to me at least, being driven by the British anit's and for what ever reason accepted by BASC. Lets face it the lead in shooting debate is nothing more than a backdoor way of getting shooting and guns off the agenda and out of the hands of the general public. Are the governments of these countries going to compensate shooters whose guns become obsolete because of the ban on lead cartridges... no chance! 

I'd be very surprised if this was being driven by any group other than those that have a vested interest in the bigger shoots. Disposal of game has always been an issue for these estates. I suspect that it's virtually impossible to actually give it away and I would never suggest for a second, that there is a cost incentive factored in per bird for a dealer to collect the bag. 
This is then shipped out to the continent where they are far more amenable to the idea of game meat for the table. 
Unfortunately whether we cease to abide by EU rules or not (I suspect we will) we will be hoping to sell into a market on their terms. The EU want lead banned. That's been plain to see for a fair few years now. Maxam have received big (EU) money to develop an eco friendly wad that will hasten the demise of lead shot. 
Maxam own Eley. Eley sponsor BASC. BASC do what the big shoots say. Big shoots say we need the EU market. EU market says no lead and we've given Maxam a fair few quid over the years to develop a steel friendly wad. 
Probably.
 

 

[Salopian]

Joe Hale ,

Good post, food for thought , or perhaps more accurately , food for disposal?

I do feel that this issue may be being influenced by the Big Commercial shoots need to continue to supply days of mass slaughter , pricked birds and then disposal  by fair means or foul . 

Because of the overheads now being absorbed by commercial shooting they NEED to have big days to make it pay .

Remember not long ago we faced bad Press about Pheasants being  buried and also incinerated . This MUST stop.

We really do need to get our house and sport in order .

Bring back the social occassion , shoot enough to be consumed by participants , friends and family , enjoy the days , pick up your litter , don't litter in the first place , and kick this political nonsense into a distant memory . Lead is for shot , Steel is for Barrels and Car production .

 

[schmokinn]

[No message]

 

[FlyingTrotter]

More statements issued it seems - they are on shooting UK - some spat over who shared what ahead of issuing the first statement - it doesn’t create a very unified projection 

 

[FlyingTrotter]

Guns on pegs have a post with quotes from the statements 

it ends with this one which might suggest the Govt will not at least in the short term take the original statement as an invitation to ban by SI (and of course in the short term has many other more pressing issues to address with new FTAs and now COVID-19)

Environment Minister Rebecca Pow said:  “This move away from the use of lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition is very welcome and I would like to applaud these organisations for coming together to reach this decision. It is a significant step for both wildlife and the wider environment and the government remains committed to ensuring a sustainable, mutually beneficial relationship between shooting and conservation.”

 

[ChrisPackham]

This whole things is a great big f*** up, designed to influence public opinion with flawed science and false promises..

As lead is a poisonous metal in public opinion, less and less people will try game as they become more and more snowflake so the organisations in order to keep their buddies horrific 1,000 bird days alive and well are trying to create demand, at a time when modern society is eating less meat...  doomed task.

In so doing they are throwing members who can’t afford back to back 1,000 bird days and therefore can’t more to other more acceptable toxic metals (bismuth) under the gun bus (actually probably beaters wagon).  However the orgs are keen to keep the plebs money so they can pretend at having a real job and keep the trust fund kicking in...

steel is-

a) less humane 

b) horrible to shoot

c) even more horrible to shoot at effective speeds 1700fps

The solution, is to Shoot what there is a consumer market for, not try to make wannabe vegans eat game. It’s the over supply that causes the issue, not what it was shot with.

I’m so doing we can use fibre or eco wads if you like with existing shot and use paper cases 

No matter how much money organisations collect by selling over priced insurance they will NOT make Mrs and Mr (that’s if they don’t identify as a washing machine) eat game.

However, scattering plastic wads around, even if some are picked up and thrown into landfill, will push the general public to dislike shooting.

 

[schmokinn]

This whole things is a great big f*** up, designed to influence public opinion with flawed science and false promises..

As lead is a poisonous metal in public opinion, less and less people will try game as they become more and more snowflake so the organisations in order to keep their buddies horrific 1,000 bird days alive and well are trying to create demand, at a time when modern society is eating less meat...  doomed task.

In so doing they are throwing members who can’t afford back to back 1,000 bird days and therefore can’t more to other more acceptable toxic metals (bismuth) under the gun bus (actually probably beaters wagon).  However the orgs are keen to keep the plebs money so they can pretend at having a real job and keep the trust fund kicking in...

steel is-

a) less humane 

b) horrible to shoot

c) even more horrible to shoot at effective speeds 1700fps

The solution, is to Shoot what there is a consumer market for, not try to make wannabe vegans eat game. It’s the over supply that causes the issue, not what it was shot with.

I’m so doing we can use fibre or eco wads if you like with existing shot and use paper cases 

No matter how much money organisations collect by selling over priced insurance they will NOT make Mrs and Mr (that’s if they don’t identify as a washing machine) eat game.

However, scattering plastic wads around, even if some are picked up and thrown into landfill, will push the general public to dislike shooting.

I was with you till you came up with the imaginery effective speed of 1700 fps  TF did you come up with that,even the manufacturers and daft enough to CLAIM more tha 1500fps!

 

[Salopian]

Copied from stalking directory forum (thanks to them), is this what it is all about?

There are numerous rumors doing the rounds on social media regarding the BASC's financial involvement in the British Game Alliance and having signed a multi million pound deal with waitrose to supply lead free game at the start of the season.A simple search on companies house reveals that the BASC have a charging order against the BGA to the tune of 100k, so i guess part of the rumors are true.If this is the reason for the u-turn the members have a right to know.

 

[JoeHale]

Copied from stalking directory forum (thanks to them), is this what it is all about?

There are numerous rumors doing the rounds on social media regarding the BASC's financial involvement in the British Game Alliance and having signed a multi million pound deal with waitrose to supply lead free game at the start of the season.A simple search on companies house reveals that the BASC have a charging order against the BGA to the tune of 100k, so i guess part of the rumors are true.If this is the reason for the u-turn the members have a right to know.

This was my response to a thread on this subject posted on Facebook

 I very much doubt there was ever a 'multi million pound deal' in the offing. The JL Partnership has become very right on in the last few years. There's been massive changes in the top tier management where quite a few had risen through the ranks. These have been ousted in favour of some bright young things with little to no experience of the business and no love for the demographic it had previously been targeted at.
Waitrose cited fears over lead as a reason for not stocking game from it's estates. If there was a move to steel this coming season, don't be surprised if they come out with some other excuse. There's a concerted effort to remove shooting from any Partnership owned land. The decision not to sell (lead) shot game is just the first move in this process.
I don't doubt that the BGA approached Waitrose and they stated that they would stock game that was lead free. It would put them in a very difficult position if they stated otherwise after previously giving this as a reason not to. However if the BGA was hanging it's hat on this happening and being worth millions on the basis of non tox adoption, they were muppets and ignorant of what was actually happening at JL Partners
If BASC financially backed the BGA on the basis of a deal with Waitrose alone. They were muppets as well.
Quite prepared to be proven wrong though.

I wrote the above on purely anecdotal evidence, pretty much based on personally knowing someone that was too 'male, pale and stale' to remain in the said top tier. After subsequently looking at the BGA I see that they have on board a former managing director of Waitrose who left the company in 2016.  Obviously this was in the (not unreasonable) belief there were contacts and access that could be very beneficial to the BGA.  It is however probably unfortunate (though not unforeseen) that Waitrose/JL would become one brand and the current JL managing director, someone that has worked up through the company, 'unexpectedly' left her position along with others in January this year. New appointments to the board in the wake of this include Nina Bhatia a former executive of British Gas and Sharon White, an ex civil servant ( in keeping with the new progressive JL focus, both women, both BAME) which unfortunately most probably render the BGA 'ambassador's' contacts book practically worthless. 
Couple this with the fact that Vegan January was pretty successful this year and will enjoy an even greater push come 2021 (January unfortunately occurs in the game shooting season) I would be extremely surprised to see any push for game meat from JL. However as stated above, I would love to be proved wrong

 

[Salopian]

Joe ,

 Thank you for that , very informative .

So if BGA haven't got a market for steel shot Game , why all the fuss to phase out Lead , which six weeks ago BASC didn't seem to have an issue with ?

 

[JoeHale]

Joe ,

 Thank you for that , very informative .

So if BGA haven't got a market for steel shot Game , why all the fuss to phase out Lead , which six weeks ago BASC didn't seem to have an issue with ?

The trouble is Salopian, this is the perfect storm of vested interests, politics and old scores to be settled. There are plenty of people in the UK that would stand to profit from a change to steel and other non toxic ammo. One only has to see the 'ambassadors' for a formerly much loved UK cartridge company giving the hard sell via social media and Youtube to the new green wonder products. The same company with a very close relationship with BASC
Politically we are about to cut ties with our EU counterparts and our biggest recipient of shot game. It's very possible that selling into  Europe could become more than a little turbulent at least in the short term. How on earth can we justify the massive amounts of pheasants shot with nowhere to even sell them at a loss to? 
With regards to old scores, the John Swift debacle will still rankle with some and no doubt he'll still have some friends at Marford Mill. I also get the impression that some of those forced to adopt non-tox for wetlands and waterfowl feel that because they have no choice, everybody should lose the use of lead.
I guess if the BGA don't have a market, they go under. If they go under, BASC lose their investment. Would BASC readily throw lead ammunition under the bus for a 100k? 
Would they? 

 
 

 

[ChrisPackham]

I was with you till you came up with the imaginery effective speed of 1700 fps  TF did you come up with that,even the manufacturers and daft enough to CLAIM more tha 1500fps!

In the US Winchester and some other steel loads quote this speed and suggest it’s the requirement for effective steel. 
 

I tried to put a dent in the seemingly endless crows yesterday and used - 32g Black gold in 6 (actual 5), 32g Clear Pigeon in 6, 32g Eley Eco Wad steel in 5

The results were conclusive, Steel doesn’t deliver the energy that lead does resulting in more wounding/perforating although smashes the birds up so if you did want to eat them meat damage would be bad ... Also lead 5s kill better than 6’s.

 

[schmokinn]

In the US Winchester and some other steel loads quote this speed and suggest it’s the requirement for effective steel. 
 

I tried to put a dent in the seemingly endless crows yesterday and used - 32g Black gold in 6 (actual 5), 32g Clear Pigeon in 6, 32g Eley Eco Wad steel in 5

The results were conclusive, Steel doesn’t deliver the energy that lead does resulting in more wounding/perforating although smashes the birds up so if you did want to eat them meat damage would be bad ... Also lead 5s kill better than 6’s.

Everything is bigger,better and vastly exagerated in the US! 

 

[ChrisPackham]

Everything is bigger,better and vastly exagerated in the US! 

True!

 

[westley]

In the US Winchester and some other steel loads quote this speed and suggest it’s the requirement for effective steel. 
 

I tried to put a dent in the seemingly endless crows yesterday and used - 32g Black gold in 6 (actual 5), 32g Clear Pigeon in 6, 32g Eley Eco Wad steel in 5

The results were conclusive, Steel doesn’t deliver the energy that lead does resulting in more wounding/perforating although smashes the birds up so if you did want to eat them meat damage would be bad ... Also lead 5s kill better than 6’s.

You have overlooked the fact that you are 'Not using steel correctly'.  According to the er............. 'Experts'  and other advocates of steel shot, you need to change your way of shooting, BUT hey, once you have mastered that change,  you will NOT notice any difference. It MUST be true cos it's on You-Tube.     

 

[ChrisPackham]

You have overlooked the fact that you are 'Not using steel correctly'.  According to the er............. 'Experts'  and other advocates of steel shot, you need to change your way of shooting, BUT hey, once you have mastered that change,  you will NOT notice any difference. It MUST be true cos it's on You-Tube.     

Wow, how do you shoot them differently to change ballistics and physics? Any tips on time travel?

 

[westley]

Wow, how do you shoot them differently to change ballistics and physics? Any tips on time travel?

Do NOT ask me, you could try BASC as they seem to be behind most of the muppets that appear on You Tube, advocating the use of steel and how much better than lead it is. It would appear that we need to change our shooting style to accommodate these 'new' cartridges. I do not know how Wildfowlers have 'adapted' their shooting, after all they had this worked upon them some time back. 

 

[ChrisPackham]

I’ll worry about it in 5 years when there is a suitable alternative to lead .. steel isn’t (I don’t get Eley back handers)