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Steve Lovatt

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
1,781
Location
Cheltenham
Being as tho the Brett thread was locked just wanted to make a comment

nobody will shoot any of my shoots if they are serving a ban from any organisation , or been caught cheating in anyway possible and had any action against them

Anyone caught cheating or bullying Scorers on a shoot day will automatically be disqualified who ever they are , end of , true story .

 
Steve why didn't you just put that out there without making it personal?

 
It's not personal , I have only just read the locked thread and when I saw Westfield mentioned I just wanted to make it clear to everyone on our opinion and how we run things

Anyone is welcome if they are not serving a ban for any reason

 
Steve, totally agree with your stance but can I ask you, if a shooter sees a ref/scorer making an obvious mistake(s) when scoring, when does it become bullying? I only ask out of interest and to see what you as the ground owner think.

 
Well I hope so Steve but remember your past experience as a ground owner......it is not that easy to prove......or ban.....without threats of retribution.

I remember it well......as we talked in length about it. (And 'no' peeps......we are not discussing 'that' person 'either' on here)

I take my hat off to you if you are going to stand up to this sort of behaviour and set a new norm for shoots that is enforced. And.....if you have a problem and need a proper investigation before banning a person (due process)......I will be happy to be your investigations officer. I can tell you........if I need to submit any CV........that I leave no stone unturned......and I always get my man.....!

 
I don't think cheating and bullying is as rife as we have been led to believe .

I haven't got a problem with disputing a referees decision in the correct manner, politely and courteously, everyone makes mistakes , that is a fact.

What I have got an issue with is verbal abuse to a referee and blatant cheating such as altering your score. 

I have also got an issue with people who think it may be best to hush it all up 'for the good of the sport'.

 
dont want to drag this on any further , i agree totaaly with what my old mate pete says above, i just wanted to add a comment on how we operate and thats that and ho i dont worry about threats or bullies (always thought there is only one way to deal with them )

steve

 
I went to 2 shoots last weekend, neither registered. There was a mixture of scorers at both but many were teenagers. When I hand my card in I tend to stand next to the scorer and watch the scoring. On the Sunday shoot there was a lad who hadn't a clue. He appeared to be watching but scored "miss/hit" twice in a row when the shooter had clearly broken both targets. So I told him to correct it. On the next card he then started scoring misses as hits. I watched him score the next few cards and he made more mistakes. I don't have a problem telling a scorer when he deducts a target incorrectly but I find it difficult to say "Oy, he missed that" about a shooter I don't know, at a ground I don't know and when I'm going around on my own. I actually think the boy's eyesight probably wasn't good enough to score because he was watching but not seeing! What I decided to do was double check my score after each pair so i knew at least my score was correct. What I should have done is told the chap running the shoot. But when I did see him he was stressed about there being a 20 shooter wait at the stand and I doubt he really wanted to know.

On the Monday shoot I watched another young scorer make mistakes: they really didn't seem to be able to tell if the clay had broken. In fact they were sat in the wrong place to see if the 2nd clay had broken at all - it's break point was near a tree on the left and when I stood behind the scorer I couldn't see the clay as it was being shot! I told the boy to move his chair but he refused to. As I walked away I told a chap who seemed to be involved with the ground and I hope he did something. It didn't seem to bother any of the other shooters though and there were queues at both stands.

If I had turned to the people in the queue and said "this scorer hasn't a clue, watch him like a hawk" would that have been bullying? It might have been the right thing to do but I couldn't bring myself to do it. If someone had done that to me at their age I probably would have died on the spot.

There is one local registered shoot I won't go to anymore as they use clueless teenage scorers

I shot a selection shoot in Devon a few weekends ago and on some stands our squad had to score ourselves because we were being taken around by a scorer but they were using manual traps and he had to man those.

It's just as well there isn't much money up for grabs in this sport. Unfortunately there isn't enough money to go around to employ more competent scorers. I imagine it isn't always easy to find someone to sit there all day, in all weathers for a pittance. Even so they do need to be trained and maybe their eyesight checked!

It will be another reason I'll miss Wylye because Ian's scorers are some of the best

 
Lots of good points Gnasher,  :smile:  one of the easiest ways of avoiding this kind of thing is for the organiser to pick the spot where the youngster sits as experience will have told him where the sweet spot will be. 

 
Well I hope so Steve but remember your past experience as a ground owner......it is not that easy to prove......or ban.....without threats of retribution.

I remember it well......as we talked in length about it. (And 'no' peeps......we are not discussing 'that' person 'either' on here)

I take my hat off to you if you are going to stand up to this sort of behaviour and set a new norm for shoots that is enforced. And.....if you have a problem and need a proper investigation before banning a person (due process)......I will be happy to be your investigations officer. I can tell you........if I need to submit any CV........that I leave no stone unturned......and I always get my man.....!
Oh, good grief...... :ermm:

 
Steve, totally agree with your stance but can I ask you, if a shooter sees a ref/scorer making an obvious mistake(s) when scoring, when does it become bullying? I only ask out of interest and to see what you as the ground owner think.
This is a very reasonable question. I guess the answer is that it's how you go about it. I can't see why any one could object to having a quiet word (I often do and have never been accused of bullying). However the way that some go about it shouting and being abusive I would class as bullying.

Over to you Steve.

 
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as a shooter in competitions i never query scorers decisions , it as been known for a wrong call to happen and on lookers have said that it was hit and then a comment might be made 

as a ground operator i dont like it much when scorers get shouted at ,dont mind the respectful " are you sure ref" because one of the hardest jobs for us is to find scorers its different for grounds that shoot once or twice a month we do 4 or 5 reg shoots a month and to be honest it can be a lonely old job at times 

i have had shooters say to me joe bloggs on stand needs a little help or adviceand thats fine as sometimes new recruits have to learn

would shooters be prepared to pay higher entry fees and have a full set of qualified refs everyshoot ??

as always feedback most welcome 

steve

 
Getting a Hedge Monkey to pay MORE, that would require divine intervention. :hunter:   :banghead:

Phil*

 

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