English Open - any news yet ?

[Shaun Hopkins]

Sorry Shaun...I do like you (you are my favourite knitter) but that is exactly the sort of attitude that means we will be having this same discussion in 5 years time....

Would have been easy to say disguise the traps, clear away cardboard, give the refs a uniform, renumber the stands....and that all seems quite obvious with hindsight....I along with others I am sure am responsible for organising large events in my day job and attention to detail and all the little things are what makes the difference

From little acorns grow big oak trees.....

Totally agree with you Jaykay (your my favorite knitter too) and the lottery bit was to suggest its more likely then the cpsa actually listening to common sense, As Nicola said an awful lot of members really don't give a hoot what goes on and the people in charge know that! Head strong people with good ideas that rock the boat are not welcome.

Whats needed is a new organisation for shooters run by shooters sadly doubt i will ever see the day.

 

[Stew]

You have a valid point Clynt, but like it or not pink and orange clays are now the norm in bright and dark conditions. Specsavers can help!

The clays are the same colour as them Vipers you like!!! :haha: :haha:

After we finally started at 11.45am, we got finished at 2.15pm. :king:

I bet you think that's ok folks.

But we had an advantage of only 5 in the squad and were driven to every stand in the valley by buggy as we had an oldest chap with us struggling to walk too far. Every stand in the valley in front of us was empty due to our huge wait at the start, although we did have to wake up the one referee. He must have come from sleepyhollow! :crazy:

 

[philmoss]

You have a valid point Clynt, but like it or not pink and orange clays are now the norm in bright and dark conditions. Specsavers can help!

The clays are the same colour as them Vipers you like!!! :haha: :haha:

After we finally started at 11.45am, we got finished at 2.15pm. :king:

I bet you think that's ok folks.

But we had an advantage of only 5 in the squad and were driven to every stand in the valley by buggy as we had an oldest chap with us struggling to walk too far. Every stand in the valley in front of us was empty due to our huge wait at the start, although we did have to wake up the one referee. He must have come from sleepyhollow! :crazy:

Wasnt your buggy driver an ex. crash test dummy........

 

[philmoss]

Totally agree with you Jaykay (your my favorite knitter too) and the lottery bit was to suggest its more likely then the cpsa actually listening to common sense, As Nicola said an awful lot of members really don't give a hoot what goes on and the people in charge know that! Head strong people with good ideas that rock the boat are not welcome.

Whats needed is a new organisation for shooters run by shooters sadly doubt i will ever see the day.

 I had a long chat with Nick Fellows after the event & he was aware of certain issues, we all need to be constructive & advise the powers tobe in a resonable manner rather than spouting off..... so maybe things will get done for the next EO

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

 I had a long chat with Nick Fellows after the event & he was aware of certain issues, we all need to be constructive & advise the powers tobe in a resonable manner rather than spouting off..... so maybe things will get done for the next EO

From what i can gather a big percentage of shooters enjoyed the shoot and i found most parts fine but it should be exceptional when you consider its what cpsa do for a living you only need to look at the essex masters to see how it should be done organised by shooting people and it shows.

 

[philmoss]

From what i can gather a big percentage of shooters enjoyed the shoot and i found most parts fine but it should be exceptional when you consider its what cpsa do for a living you only need to look at the essex masters to see how it should be done organised by shooting people and it shows.

The CPSA only manages the scores, squads, start times, admin, etc............ any ground who is awarded the event has tendered & signed a contract that they are responcible for provision of refs, targets, equipment, ground staff, course design, etc.......The CPSA do their part very well in my opinion........

 

[Gnasher]

From what i can gather a big percentage of shooters enjoyed the shoot and i found most parts fine but it should be exceptional when you consider its what cpsa do for a living you only need to look at the essex masters to see how it should be done organised by shooting people and it shows.


The CPSA only manages the scores, squads, start times, admin, etc............ any ground who is awarded the event has tendered & signed a contract that they are responcible for provision of refs, targets, equipment, ground staff, course design, etc.......The CPSA do their part very well in my opinion........

But surely they should have some supervisory role ensuring the standard of all of the above are good enough before and during the event

 

[Salopian]

Sounds like Barrow Heath are vying for some majors, if backside  kissing is anything to judge by!

Nick Fellows is a square peg in a round hole . He has been in post long enough to have got an idea of what is wrong. He is first class at smiling and agreeing but doing nothing about ongoing issues.But what we have all lost sight of is that the current issues with the CPSA were all solved over twenty years ago, when County, Regional, Refereeing and Coaching committees had input into the organisation and general running and procedure of CPSA business, but what happened? The Board disbanded and took away responsibility from said committees. So although I may often criticise the CEO he is probably only working to rule.

The issues at Southdown could have largely been rectified before the event even started if someone had thought it through. The stand numbering could have been rectified on day one, the squad timings could have been adjusted by lunchtime on day one. Did anyone walk the course before the start and vet the targets before the first shot and take into account prevailing weather conditions, varying height of competitors, left and right handed shooters? Obviously not, and it is no use blaming Graham Brown the course setter, he was in Cyprus!

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

But surely they should have some supervisory role ensuring the standard of all of the above are good enough before and during the event

Thats exactly the point Gnasher! In my business i use contractors for various jobs but should anything go wrong the buck stops with me so i choose wisely as its my reputation on the line.  As for the CPSA their responability is not only admin but also  choosing a suitable venue.

Whilst i am sure they play a very important role and have a  difficult job trying to keep everyone happy i feel they took their eye off the ball on this one.

 

[Hamster]

But surely they should have some supervisory role ensuring the standard of all of the above are good enough before and during the event

What you say sounds plausible but think about it, who'd want that job ? Can you imagine how welcome you'd feel walking around someones pride and joy and trying to be helpful ? Unless you've got any sort of actual clout you're simply going to be ignored or worse made a scape goat if things go wrong. The responsibility has to rest with the ground before, during and after.

I feel gutted for Southdown because it wasn't that long ago that its name was synonymous with classy targets, in fact I recall GD praising them in print by saying that some of his great wins here and abroad were in some way due to the great variety of good targets he was getting to shoot including theirs.

If it were me I'd be sitting down and taking stock of what went awry and where, much of it appears to be bloody straightforward, numbering, time slots, visibility throughout the day etc etc, then put your hand up and say what you intend to do about it.

 

[Salopian]

Sensible comments Hamster, but unfortunately the horse has bolted. All of it should have been addressed before the first shot was fired.

Sadly I do not think it fair to say leave everything to the Ground owners, because when you tender for an event you have to cut the profit to a bare minimum for the CPSA to award it to you.All the CPSA seem to want to do is preen at the event.

 

[maddmatt]

The course was vetted by Philip Simpson in his role as Chief Referee, he did make a comment about the highish number of trap style targets on the Lane half of the course but nothing was changed.

On reflection our rotation run very smoothly, even with 2 trips back to the Valley, booked in with no fuss, probably had 4 no birds at most so no complaints there, no issues with ref's - didn't eat at the ground, seems I left the mortgage application at home  :biggrin: . The Valley half was much better than the Lane half even with 2 potential eye sight tests, stands 9 & 15. The Lane seemed to have been designed for lazy ground staff to make it easier for them to fill traps, so a lot of targets were thrown going away, quartering away. If the CPSA had decided to have 9:00, 12:00 and 15:00 rotations then trap filling would not have been an issue, we only had to wait to shoot 3 stands because the 11:00 rotation started before we had finished our round.

Of course the CPSA could speak to John Dyson and ask for his advice on running large entry shoots such as the Essex Masters...

 

[diver682]

Promatic supplied the traps and James Peckham was there for 5 days . No one else gets involved in large shoots all over the world more than the Promatic guys . Did anyone ask for his advice . After all he worked with his father at Southdown for over 20 years ! 

 

[philmoss]

Sounds like Barrow Heath are vying for some majors, if backside  kissing is anything to judge by!

Nick Fellows is a square peg in a round hole . He has been in post long enough to have got an idea of what is wrong. He is first class at smiling and agreeing but doing nothing about ongoing issues.But what we have all lost sight of is that the current issues with the CPSA were all solved over twenty years ago, when County, Regional, Refereeing and Coaching committees had input into the organisation and general running and procedure of CPSA business, but what happened? The Board disbanded and took away responsibility from said committees. So although I may often criticise the CEO he is probably only working to rule.

The issues at Southdown could have largely been rectified before the event even started if someone had thought it through. The stand numbering could have been rectified on day one, the squad timings could have been adjusted by lunchtime on day one. Did anyone walk the course before the start and vet the targets before the first shot and take into account prevailing weather conditions, varying height of competitors, left and right handed shooters? Obviously not, and it is no use blaming Graham Brown the course setter, he was in Cyprus!

Oh dear Mr Harris........... I thought you were more educated & knew me better than that !!!.

Obviously with your limited intelligence, even you should know that Barrow Heath has already been awarded "Premier" status, been awarded runner-up in the CPSA shooting ground of the year awards & has been awarded with the National Intercounties ESP as well as the English Open FITASC Championship !!!....... not bad for my first year at the helm, hardly backside kissing  :nyam:   :nyam:

When you have something sensible to comment on regarding my posts please do so......until then Crawl back under your stone & continue to be yet another keyboard competitor who talks & comments BUT never puts his money where his mouth is & actually enter these events & supports the association that you are a member of ........ :king:   :king:

 

[Salopian]

Phil,

 Very well answered.

When you, the CEO, and the association  have got your act together then maybe I will enter.

Until then I will just continue to criticise ineptitude using my  experience that has only been gained by entering and running successful shoots.

I just hope that you don't end up crying in your beer if you get involved.

As for your ground achievements in such a short time, congratulations, but the bar isn't set very high is it? We are not exactly overrun with brilliant grounds vying for selection or National shoots are we?

Phil, don't get too carried away with winning a CPSA award.

I look forward to how you get on next year with your award winning National competition. 

 

[Salopian]

Quote:-

 " BUT never puts his money where his mouth is & actually enter these events & supports the association that you are a member of ........  :king:    :king:"

Sorry, Phil , I may have confused you with the same named chap who walked around Fauxdegla, & Doveridge at the British Championships  who moaned about the quality, but didn't compete! How did you do at the English at Southdown?

Kettle ! Pot ! Black! welcome to the Bat cave.

 

[philmoss]

Phil,

 Very well answered.

When you, the CEO, and the association  have got your act together then maybe I will enter.

Until then I will just continue to criticise ineptitude using my  experience that has only been gained by entering and running successful shoots.

I just hope that you don't end up crying in your beer if you get involved.

As for your ground achievements in such a short time, congratulations, but the bar isn't set very high is it? We are not exactly overrun with brilliant grounds vying for selection or National shoots are we?

Phil, don't get too carried away with winning a CPSA award.

I look forward to how you get on next year with your award winning National competition. 

Peter,

The whole point of my reply was that you accused me of "Backside Kissing"....something that i dont need to do.

If you have the intelligence & decorum to discuss issues in a adult manner without being rude or incorrectly judgemental then i will entertain you......however i can see through the smog that exausts from you & have no further intention of discussing any issues with oneself !!!.....What a outstanding ambassador you must be for "The Guild of shooting instructors" !!!........

Thats me done on the subject, i dont need to talk a good shoot......i run one !!!

 

[Salopian]

Phil,

        My comments were directed at you because of the comments you made about what is best described as a debacle at The English Open, what should have been a show piece for English Sporting .

For you to say that you thought it was a good event and that the CPSA could not be held responsible for some of the issues that so many complained about just smacked of creeping and avoiding issues that have gone on for far too long.

Please don't discuss things with yourself, (oneself) it's good to talk.

But perhaps you only like to hear praise ?

It is you that has made false and derisory comments, please get your own house in order before accusing me of things that I have or have not done.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one, you think that the CPSA is in good order and functional. (Given your awards I hardly expect anything different). I think that it is currently not very good.

This matter is now closed as far as I am concerned 

 

[RobertBeard]

Surely there must be a minimum specification for the grounds to bid on with penalties if not then provided?

 

[Salopian]

I think it would be correct if I actually apologised to Phil Moss for misunderstanding his comments about Southdown.

I am so disgusted, disappointed and disillusioned with the CPSA management in their handling of majors that I thought Phil was saying that he thought the English was okay. Upon re-reading his comments he said that after talking with Nick Fellows he thought that the CPSA actually do a good job.

I would have to agree to a certain extent, and I would say that the staff at CPSA try hard but do appear to be leaderless, and there does appear to be a disconnect with administering the functions of squadding and timetable rotations and basic event organisation.