Driven Gameshooting Have we lost our way?

[Salopian]

Coming towards the end of the season and perhaps time now to reflect.

Is Gameshooting losing its direction?

We seem to have people who are obsessed with shooting AT 80 yard Pheasants , but to little effect.

We seem to have cartridge manufacturers loading ridiculous Game loads and charging stupid money .

We appear to have Gameshoots run where they fly Pheasants and Partridge off the top of one hill to the top of another with no thought about Guns placed in totally unsuitable terrain below. This in my opinion is not Gamekeeping or a good shoot.

What is a sensible amount of money to tip the Keeper ? £20 per hundred upto £50 per hundred at some shoots whether you have had a good day or not it is good form and expected. If you are fortunate to be on a 500 bird day is it really necessary to tip the Keeper £250 per Gun?

Sorry if I sound disgruntled , but it just me feeling that if we carry on this way , the working man will be priced out of a very enjoyable sport.

Your thoughts please.

 

[chippy]

I've already been priced out of it, about 10 years ago. And I don't really miss it ,would rather shoot clays now. At least your guaranteed to pull the trigger.

 

[wylye]

A good friend of mine explained the other day that he can't afford to shoot at the places he would like to shoot and he doesn't want to shoot at the places he can afford!

Sums it up really. I don't think it will change until the City of London goes bust and the money runs out.There are lots of places willing to take £2500 per gun/day and there are lots of people willing to pay it to shoot extreme pheasants. Funny old world.

 

[Salopian]

Wylye.

 Too true.

Had one the other week , bought a new Guerini on Thursday , had a lesson on Friday , shooting Game on Saturday .

Starts the lesson off on Friday , goes to load up first two cartridges, " Which way do these go round?"   " Only one way Sir , brass towards you."

He loads up nervously , but not as half nervous as me. Shoulders gun then drops it back down to fiddle with fluff on bead of loaded gun .

Mounts gun , calls for clay , shoots and misses , opens gun ejects spent case closes gun , calls for target, I stop him explaining gun will not fire as chamber is now empty. " How do you fire second cartridge then?" 

After a very traumatic hour I suggested he was not yet ready for Game shooting.

" Oh it's been booked for months and it's cost me £800 "

:baby: :baby: :baby:    Sorry couldn't find an emoticon for me spitting the dummy out.

 

[ChrisPackham]

Coming towards the end of the season and perhaps time now to reflect.

Is Gameshooting losing its direction? I think you are absolutely right, I fact I fear we are playing into the hands of Anti shooters. On the larger commercial shoots I have felt a number of times 'shouldn't really be doing this'..

We seem to have people who are obsessed with shooting AT 80 yard Pheasants , but to little effect. I think this has come about through media of various sorts with celebrities being paid to promote the shoots and the specialist equipment required in an effort to create more sales.  This then becomes the norm and people aspire to boast about higher and higher birds.  I still think this is the shoot being lazy rather than being creative and putting together interesting drives. I really can't see how the ethics of 90% failure and potential wounding rate sit comfortably with anyone.

We seem to have cartridge manufacturers loading ridiculous Game loads and charging stupid money . Yet people pay it increasing demand..

We appear to have Gameshoots run where they fly Pheasants and Partridge off the top of one hill to the top of another with no thought about Guns placed in totally unsuitable terrain below. This in my opinion is not Gamekeeping or a good shoot. Agree completely, its lazy and just cashing in.

What is a sensible amount of money to tip the Keeper ? £20 per hundred upto £50 per hundred at some shoots whether you have had a good day or not it is good form and expected. If you are fortunate to be on a 500 bird day is it really necessary to tip the Keeper £250 per Gun? Fundamentally this must be down to the individual, if the day has been enjoyable then reward accordingly, it should not be based on birds killed or shot at but to me in the same way as any other service.  If the day is disappointing, why would you tip? It feels like a stealth tax in current guise 

Sorry if I sound disgruntled , but it just me feeling that if we carry on this way , the working man will be priced out of a very enjoyable sport.

I think you are right, it's onbvious that 30 bird is difficult for shoots to make money or cover costs, I think more emphasis should be on fewer, better presented, higher cost per bird, sporting birds. I would much prefer to pay 40 per bird on a sporting 150 bird day than 30 per bird on a 200 bird flying chickens day, I'd like to hope others would.

I honestly think that unless things change, the antis will be after these ridiculous big bag, high wounding, mass pheasant dumping days, and frankly I agree with them, I can see this being the road to a band on game shooting or at least driven game.

A good friend of mine explained the other day that he can't afford to shoot at the places he would like to shoot and he doesn't want to shoot at the places he can afford!

Sums it up really. I don't think it will change until the City of London goes bust and the money runs out.There are lots of places willing to take £2500 per gun/day and there are lots of people willing to pay it to shoot extreme pheasants. Funny old world.

In not sure it's the city boys, corporate entertaining has been curtailed hugely.  It seems to me the privileged few who have made a killing out of recent market manipulation, sorry 'uncertainty', and are spending FTSE and propert gains etc.. Rich get richer as always and the gap is ever widening..

 

[Garwood]

Many of them treat game with the same respect that they give the clays that they began their careers on ,ie `how do I hit this one`.

Birds are just animated targets for them and only numbers matter,how many,how high,how many times can I be photographed,etc,etc

If you want to test yourself stick to clays,not living creatures.

 

[ips]

Wylye.

 Too true.

Had one the other week , bought a new Guerini on Thursday , had a lesson on Friday , shooting Game on Saturday .

Starts the lesson off on Friday , goes to load up first two cartridges, " Which way do these go round?"   " Only one way Sir , brass towards you."

He loads up nervously , but not as half nervous as me. Shoulders gun then drops it back down to fiddle with fluff on bead of loaded gun .

Mounts gun , calls for clay , shoots and misses , opens gun ejects spent case closes gun , calls for target, I stop him explaining gun will not fire as chamber is now empty. " How do you fire second cartridge then?" 

After a very traumatic hour I suggested he was not yet ready for Game shooting.

" Oh it's been booked for months and it's cost me £800 "

:baby: :baby: :baby:    Sorry couldn't find an emoticon for me spitting the dummy out.

jeez, that is astounding ?

 

[Garwood]

jeez, that is astounding ?

But sadly a scenario that is often repeated !

 

[Dbac300566]

It's a difficulty situation for shoots because if they do not present "challenging" targets then the money goes else wear,the large shoots have very large overheads e.g. Full time gamekeepers,thousands of poults to rear,rent and shooting rights to pay for,that includes house's for gamekeepers with vehicles plus wheat and vet and meds plus other costs and remember if they shoot 30 percent of the birds they put down then they are about average for the season.

From my experience with game shooting if I shoot a high bird 40 plus yards then it is a good feeling to see the bird drop dead but not so good to see one fly of which has been pricked and cannot be picked up by the dogs because the distance the bird has covered.The local shoot use the farm to stand guns on,last Saturday the drive yielded 38 birds for 234 shots with some of the guns are classed as very good shots far better than I,the birds are driven of a valley over the guns at a height of approx 60 to 80 yards high.I do not shoot with this team because of the cost is very high,spoke to one of the loaders and his gun shot 28 times for 2 kills.So if you ask me is this sporting my answer would be it is different to the little shoot i go on but from the bird point of view there are stil pricked birds on both shoots so you pay your money and make your choice.Walked around the farm the next day and picked up 1 bird which had been pricked so not to bad.

 

[jwpzx9r]

My brother's father in law was invited to shoot at a quite prestigious game shoot in the Scottish borders. He attended and shot at live game ... he had never held a shotgun in his life before that day!

 

[ips]

very very few unpicked pricked birds at our syndicate shoot but I suspect quite a few on "proper" driven days.

 

[ChrisPackham]

Begs the question, should there be a reinstatement of the game licence or training such as with DSC1?

 

[Salopian]

I think we should have to buy a game licence and a dog licence .

I am against compulsory testing for sgc licence applications , but I do think that gameshooters need to understand etiquette and be members of BASC, NGO or CA .

It would be wonderful if everyone voluntarily went for a lesson ,perhaps with a Shoot franchised Instructor? So that some accountability could be established.

 

[Hamster]

Is it right, desirable or even sane to fire a shell containing 141 pellets at birds that are said to be 100 yards high. Is this game shooting or a ballistic test. 

 

[Sian]

After a very traumatic hour I suggested he was not yet ready for Game shooting.

I would suggest he is not ready for clay shooting either, at least not on his own, dear God.

 

[Jeremy Baker]

Coming towards the end of the season and perhaps time now to reflect.

Is Gameshooting losing its direction?

We seem to have people who are obsessed with shooting AT 80 yard Pheasants , but to little effect.

We seem to have cartridge manufacturers loading ridiculous Game loads and charging stupid money .

We appear to have Gameshoots run where they fly Pheasants and Partridge off the top of one hill to the top of another with no thought about Guns placed in totally unsuitable terrain below. This in my opinion is not Gamekeeping or a good shoot.

What is a sensible amount of money to tip the Keeper ? £20 per hundred upto £50 per hundred at some shoots whether you have had a good day or not it is good form and expected. If you are fortunate to be on a 500 bird day is it really necessary to tip the Keeper £250 per Gun?

Sorry if I sound disgruntled , but it just me feeling that if we carry on this way , the working man will be priced out of a very enjoyable sport.

Your thoughts please.

There are cheap days.

There are expensive days. 

There are shoots with 20 yard birds.

There are shoots where you leave 50 yard birds as too low.

There are small bags. 

There are big bags. 

There are simple shoots.

There are shoots with chefs for elevenses.

There are shoots for everyone, choose what you like and go ahead and buy it.

Same with cars there are cheap cars and crazy expensive cars.

Each to there own.  

 

[Salopian]

Jeremy ,

 Point taken .

But with Knobs with crazy expensive cars they usually end up being banned for speeding, driving without due care and attention or manslaughter.

Sadly we have to put up with Knobs that can't shoot , cannot range judge and have no manners , who will ultimately lose me my sport.

 

[westley]

I've already been priced out of it, about 10 years ago. And I don't really miss it ,would rather shoot clays now. At least your guaranteed to pull the trigger.

AND it does not matter if they are good or bad shots. I do not mind leaving wounded clays around !

Jeremy ,

 Point taken .

But with Knobs with crazy expensive cars they usually end up being banned for speeding, driving without due care and attention or manslaughter.

Or scraped off a tree  !

jeez, that is astounding ?

Astounding it may be BUT it IS happening. I too have had THREE such cases this past season.

very very few unpicked pricked birds at our syndicate shoot but I suspect quite a few on "proper" driven days.

I have been on shoots were the stripped carcases of dead birds were all over, along with some of the fattest Buzzards I have seen  !

 

[salop sniper]

Pete,

I too am priced out of driven game shooting. 

Sporting opportunity`s are about if you look.....What I do have is a position on a small DIY shoot that I enjoy very much and it also gives me other shooting opportunity`s all year round (Pigeon, Rabbit and Corvid) and this I can afford. I also enjoy the rearing of and looking after the poults or ex-layers that we have and the work party days where we are working with chainsaws, building bridges, repairing gates etc. My DIY shoot see`s 50% walked up shooting, some duck flighting and the rest of the time being the "young guy" I am walking back gun. No big bags and no great height birds, 15-20 birds average once a fortnight (Nov- Jan), so if we are lucky a brace per gun. Some times not all guns turn up so pegging is a good spread apart so height may not be up in the clouds but long crossers are fairly common. 

How ever I make a big effort and do a lot of beating on two big shoots as you know and I do this in order to be able to attend 2 days that are beaters days, tomorrow and Wednesday this year for me. Now the birds on these days are above the standard I am used to, bar the two days a year that are the beaters day`s. So I do in my mind what`s the right thing...... book in for some brushing up on driven targets with someone who can put me right .

Myself I am torn over if we should be tested on safety before being allowed to shoot or purchase a gun once a license has been granted.

I do though think it would be a good idea for keepers to have a written and signed document from each gun before shooting starts confirming that they are safe and competent and that if they are found to fall short on this that they would be asked to pack up and leave the shoot without any refund. And along with the shoot booking form this should be pointed out that they stand to lose their cash if they are pulled and asked to leave, giving them some food for thought.

Myself I would like to see more small shoots where 30/32 gram of 5`s and 6`s were more than sufficient and bags were 100/120 top. 

This season I have seen all sorts of cartridges in use and have been shocked and disappointed at what some are using.... 36gram 7`s, 21 gram 7.5`s, 42 gram 3`s. I just cant get my head around the use of 7.5 shot on good driven game, like wise 36 and 42 grams all day long must punish you esp if its a 200 bird day for a team of 8. 

Education is surely what is needed !

ATB

Matt