CPSA cut offs / classifications for issue 47 (applies from June 1st)

[V8 90]

How about - we should register to shoot each Discipline & have to shoot a min of 5 x 100 regd events to get a Classification in each Once you move up a Class you stay there end of !

 

[Will Hewland]

How about - we should register to shoot each Discipline & have to shoot a min of 5 x 100 regd events to get a Classification in each Once you move up a Class you stay there end of !

The first part is good. But what about old age or other genuine reasons for decline in form, such as financial (can't shoot as often). The rules say you can only go down one class per period and it must be 300+ targets to do so.

 

[V8 90]

The first part is good. But what about old age or other genuine reasons for decline in form, such as financial (can't shoot as often). The rules say you can only go down one class per period and it must be 300+ targets to do so.

Those that want to use & abuse the system would plead poverty to justify their lack of shooting, also classes for Vets & is 60 to "Young" to be a Vet ?? There's some very very good Vets !!

 

[Jim Wheeler]

to state what is not obvious ,,, you will have to 'average' the 'percentages' over a year, or a set number of shoots,, maybe using the best 5 from the past 8 results?  takes away most 'freak' results.

don't  get confused with handicaps,,,  and it must change up or down,,, I was 'a' class 15 years ago,,can barely get a c' class score now!!!

 

[maddmatt]

Rob

i think matts proposal is that the averages are floating and worked out on the day so depending on overall scores your vet chap could theoretically still be in A on the day despite his lower for him score as long as overall scores were down due to cack UK weather. The current system means that on a cack day many scores are low even though the shooters shot very well for the conditions however there averages are cocked up through no fault of there own. I have shot in terrible conditions and posted very low scores but won, on the occasions i consider i shot very well indeed and yet average plummeted which imo is nonsense. It is possible to shoot a very good hard fought 80 on a bad day and have shot it much better than a 90 you just scraped in on a good day.

Spot on Ian, class averages would float therefore reflective of the shoot average

 

[BoB1]

Spot on Ian, class averages would float therefore reflective of the shoot average

Rob

i think matts proposal is that the averages are floating and worked out on the day so depending on overall scores your vet chap could theoretically still be in A on the day despite his lower for him score as long as overall scores were down due to cack UK weather. The current system means that on a cack day many scores are low even though the shooters shot very well for the conditions however there averages are cocked up through no fault of there own. I have shot in terrible conditions and posted very low scores but won, on the occasions i consider i shot very well indeed and yet average plummeted which imo is nonsense. It is possible to shoot a very good hard fought 80 on a bad day and have shot it much better than a 90 you just scraped in on a good day.

Sure, floating average. I can see the logic, sincerely

But,say the weather is perfect & a guy normally in AA just has a bad day. He could still end up winning B or C, just by pure chance of where he finishes on the leaderboard.

My point is, after the first 5-10 guys (who would be competing to be overall HG), all the other class winners/places are just pure luck really. Your winning or not winning is then not based on how well you shoot, its worked out on a spreadsheet based on everyone elses performance that day.

If the first 4 shooters end up in AA for the day, then it sucks to finish 4th, as guys 1st-3rd & 5-7th will collect while you gets nowt.

Whats then stopping a AA shooter from shooting a 25/73, as an example, on his first round. He then says "Well, Im not going to get HG now. Might as well drop another 3 birds and see if I can end up winning B class". If he has no chance of winning HG, he might as well just drop 10-15 more points on purpose so he could potentially end up winning B or C class.

 

[maddmatt]

Well he wouldn't know what the shoot average will be therefore he wouldn't know how many targets to drop. That is the best part of this system, it is almost impossible to sand bag it, and the more shooters taking part the harder it becomes. Just seems to be a pretty easy way of doing things, shooters like GD, MW or RF are only interested in winning HG, so won't effect the top shooters anyway.

 

[V8 90]

This would be a good drunken debate around a camp fire

 

[ips]

I thought the idea was that you stay in your class for the 6 months but the cut off points varied on the day. So a good day B class is 84 but on a windy rainy day or whatever scores are down so B is deemed 80 due to overall scores. You retain a B class score as you shot well despite the conditions ?

I am not sure varying class week to week would work.

 

[Hamster]

I'm really not convinced there's much sandbagging going on, your average reg shoot pays out £100 for the top score in each class at best, by the time you factor in entry, fuel and shells you're in the money just staying at home ! 

Also how do you know you'll bag first in class anyway because:

1) you could shoot poorly

2) you could get outshot

3) are you the only sandbagger ?

In any case even if you did manage to sandbag and win 2/3 shoots unfairly for a year, what then ?

 

[Fortis Mark]

Interesting topic. 

There are a number of different ways to 'run' the class system / averages, as has been suggested by a few on here.  The thing with stats is no 'one' system is perfect. You can always pick holes in statistical analysis (Some people make good money out of doing just that)

I think it would be fair to say that the current system is 'fit for purpose' in that it's transparent, simple to follow/understand and works to a point. We all have to play within the same rules.

Like Hamster I don't think sandbagging is a big issue although I'm sure it goes on.  Also 'Badge Collecting' where a good shot chooses not to hand in his / her card because they have had a bad day. I think once the master score cards are in - ALL scores at a registered should be submitted regardless of whether the shooter handed in a card.  

As my own personal shooting journey progresses I am now starting to 'measure' myself by how far off HG I am at each shoot. I think a system based on % away from HG on each shoot would be a more accurate representation of a 'true' class although it would involve a more complex calculation.   

 

[maddmatt]

Hammy, don't you believe it, I guarantee you there will be some interesting scores at some of the events with decent prize money.

 

[radrac]

I know this has been done on a load of threads already...but I'd just like to say the following; as someone who has lived and died financially by statistics and maths all my working life the CPSA classification system is a perfectly acceptable way of creating a handicapped system. The only major flaw as "Clever" has pointed out is the sample size (targets shot), but the CPSA looks at it's average punter and only sees a a small number of reg targets shot by most and so has to allow the anomaly of people being classified on very few competitive targets. The system isn't mathematically perfect, but it does encourage new and improving shots to compete at an early stage in their shooting career...cheating is common (on a limited scale) in most things...but rarely profitable in the long term   :biggrin: ! 

 

[ExSCA]

I know this has been done on a load of threads already...but I'd just like to say the following; as someone who has lived and died financially by statistics and maths all my working life the CPSA classification system is a perfectly acceptable way of creating a handicapped system. The only major flaw as "Clever" has pointed out is the sample size (targets shot), but the CPSA looks at it's average punter and only sees a a small number of reg targets shot by most and so has to allow the anomaly of people being classified on very few competitive targets. The system isn't mathematically perfect, but it does encourage new and improving shots to compete at an early stage in their shooting career...cheating is common (on a limited scale) in most things...but rarely profitable in the long term   :biggrin: ! 

I largely agree with this - it does the right job of defining the classes and where people sit in relation, but I also think it does that job TOO SLOWLY.   In this modern age, I'd like to see the Issue windows down to 12 weeks or even 4 weeks - and let people move up classes based on form. Moving down courses should be slower to stop people sandbagging for specific competitions. 

The system could be automated - and run to refresh and issue new classes on a monthly basis.  

(and yes I know that some grounds don't have access to the internet - that would need to be a prerequisite to running registered shoots. It's 2014 now)

When I am emperor... etc

 

[Will Hewland]

Spot on Matt (almost). I think class takes a while to assess, so if I were Emperor I would reclassify every four months, but after a minimum of 6 shoots or stay put.

 

[Will Hewland]

CPSA site now updated with new classifications / rankings etc.

 

[ExSCA]

I have made my first jump in class since starting shooting - now B-Class in sporting... still D in FITASC Sporting....  

 

[no.1topdog]

Thanks CleverSC3. Just checked my new average.

I think I have worked out the ultimate sandbagging technique, but don't tell anyone or it will make a mockery of the system.

I have just re-joined The CPSA after a few years away from registered shoots. I was previously in A Class (English Sporting) and would honestly describe myself as that standard, normally happy to shoot around the late 70's to mid 80's.

I have shot 2 registered competitions. One was in now infamous Podimore England Selection where I scored 63, and a blinding day (for me) at Ashley Clay Shoot (locally to me) where I scored an 88.

After the adjustment I am now in AAA Yes! That is not my finger sticking on the keys! AAA!!  :sarcastichand:

I think I might have engineered my scores slightly wrong?   Do I get extra points for Reverese Sandbagging? :suicide:

This is the funniest thing that will happen to me all day I'm sure. I think I may be doing birds only from now on?  Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! You see I can't stop laughing!!   :sarcastic: :sarcastic:

 

[BoB1]

Reverse sand-bagging, I like it topdog.

Im in B-class dtl now, sweet!

 

[Will Hewland]

Thanks CleverSC3. Just checked my new average.

I think I have worked out the ultimate sandbagging technique, but don't tell anyone or it will make a mockery of the system.

I have just re-joined The CPSA after a few years away from registered shoots. I was previously in A Class (English Sporting) and would honestly describe myself as that standard, normally happy to shoot around the late 70's to mid 80's.

I have shot 2 registered competitions. One was in now infamous Podimore England Selection where I scored 63, and a blinding day (for me) at Ashley Clay Shoot (locally to me) where I scored an 88.

After the adjustment I am now in AAA Yes! That is not my finger sticking on the keys! AAA!!  :sarcastichand:

I think I might have engineered my scores slightly wrong?   Do I get extra points for Reverese Sandbagging? :suicide:

This is the funniest thing that will happen to me all day I'm sure. I think I may be doing birds only from now on?  Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! You see I can't stop laughing!!   :sarcastic: :sarcastic:

Well done? I think.. Now you actually are No1 Top dog!

But that's why I maintain we should have a minimum number of shoots and grounds to get classified. My mate hit AA last time from 1 shoot. When I first started I went to B because I did four shoots and 2 dropped off. Just not representative sampling..