Budget Cartridges

[jwpzx9r]

The example of a miss by one inch is rhetorical, the fact is there is a difference in cartridge speeds and that will cause the shot mass to arrive later. There is no point applying mathematical equations which take the pattern size into account to help prove that misses can't be down to speed. The way we shoot is not in exact robotic movements, after a few years you begin to feel the lead, dare I say even see it. 

If you set up a robotic arm to give centre breaks on a 40 yard crosser and then progressively drop the velocity there will come a time when the clay will be missed by a few inches time and again. The sweet spot of feeling and seeing the lead differs from person to person, it isn't that slow won't break, it's the manner and ease of those breaks and of course the quality of the break that builds confidence.

I don't doubt you are right but this is not about setting up a trap to throw constant angle and velocity its about variance in a box of cartridges and if you say a swing of about 100fps either way is going to be the cause of a miss I personally doubt that. As a trapshooter I do not even think about lead to be honest a use the swing of the gun to create the lead required. I think in trap if you start thinking about leading the target you are headed for trouble... someone else who shoots trap may come on and tell me different that is their prerogative this is about opinions. However the example you have chosen to use is not relevant to the question here because that is not what is going on when you get variance in a box of cartridges and a swing of 100fps either way will not cause a miss in my opinion. Now Ed has already stated that he shoots all sorts of dross he has been given as prizes what I would say is that when he shoots he has the knowledge of a world championship winner telling him if he is on it, slightly in front of centre it or behind centre and in your example adjust his shooting to compensate his lead so again I think your example is not a good model. If you had said that the velocity varied wildly one way or the other without sequence I could see misses being regular... no manufacturer makes that type of ammunition ...do they?

edit re robotic shooting I disagree. With respect some of the best trapshooters I have seen are just like a robot it makes them what they are! It is those who are not like a robot who do the missing bit.

 

[westley]

With the exception of sub sonics, I do not believe there is a bad cartridge, as has already been said. However I DO believe that some cartridges suit certain guns and not others. I have proved this with a fixed choke Beretta 20 bore, an assortment of cartridges, a pattern plate and nothing better to do. So having found a cartridge that suits my gun/choke combination and not least of all, my pocket, I will stick with it. I have never subscribed to the "these are a slower cartridge, so I need to increase my lead" or vice versa for a faster cartridge. I feel that an experienced shooter has an inbuilt 'lead picture' for each target which is then increased or decreased to suit at the time, immediately prior to pulling the trigger. If a miss then occurs, it is rarely "that was my fault" more likely "these cartridges are slow" ! It just so happens that the cartridge I have confidence in through my 2 clay guns are the Superfarts.

 

[ips]

John

Hammys example / explanation was merely in answer to the "you cannot miss by an inch" discussion therfore a general analogy not aimed specifically at the consistency issue.

That's how I read it anyway and there is nothing in his post that is not 100% correct imo.

 

[Hamster]

100fps either way is going to be the cause of a miss I personally doubt that. 

I have not actually said that but I do believe, some people at least, can detect speed differences, also that slower cartridges don't crush targets as well. This latter point cannot even be argued against, it is a product of increased kinetic energy. 

In my example we assumed a robot placing the shots accurately time after time. In real life we cannot replicate that level of centre placement, therefore any flaws will be magnified because by definition the periphery of the pattern is more sparse which in turn can spell misses and even where it doesn't, the resulting break quality suffers. 

People easily notice the difference both in breaks and lead pictures when shooting subsonics, yet they are actually only just over 200 fps slower than many standard loads, certainly no more than 400 fps compared to even the very fastest !

 

[jwpzx9r]

Really?

Totally disagree with this one

"The way we shoot is not in exact robotic movements" most of the good trap shooters I have seen do everything with the repetitious certainty of a robot its when the repetitious certainty is lost that the targets go as well!

 

[jwpzx9r]

"I have not actually said that but I do believe, some people at least, can detect speed differences, also that slower cartridges don't crush targets as well. This latter point cannot even be argued against, it is a product of increased kinetic energy."

While I agree with that it is not part of the debate it would take a lot more than the variance in the velocity of the shells packed into a box to notice any difference in that aspect of shooting a target ... in my opinion even if you greatly varied the distance at which the targets being shot I doubt you would see much difference in this aspect. But more to the point that is, as far as I was concerned at least, not what we are debating we are talking shot to shot from a box of cartridges... hell make it a slab... you are not going to be missing targets due to the variance of the muzzle velocity... even with Baikals  

 

[Jim Wheeler]

:biggrin: :biggrin:
Yep! He got you didn't he?  :sarcastic:

Faced with running out of his own cartridges and not fancying the long walk back to get some more, what is he to do? Remember it was in practice as you said.

Well, he did it, and it worked. He really does have a wicked sense of humour Jim, knows how to keep an audience and could charm the birds from the trees. :biggrin:

As far as experience goes, well, I have seen him do this on more than one occasion.

              if you say so . :biggrin:

 

[Jim Wheeler]

this may help, http://shotgunreport.com/2012/10/26/lead-changes-with-different-speed-shells/

an excerpt:

A #9 pellet started at 1000 fps (program won’t do 980 fps) takes .0777 seconds to go 21 yards. The same pellet started at 1220 (to make up that 20 fps) takes .0660 seconds to go the same distance. That is a difference of .0117 fps. Lets say that the clay is going about 35 mph by the time it is at the center stake. That’s 51.3 feet per second. The clay target will go .6 feet in that time, so the difference in lead between the shells of the two speeds is .6 feet or 7.2 inches. I think that my math is right, but I spent most of my math classes sitting in the back row doing crosswords.

My numbers come out a little differently than yours because I am making some different assumptions, but we are within a couple of inches.

Does a difference in lead of 7 inches between the two shells matter? Not in the slightest. It all depends on what you get used to. If you shoot the 980 fps shells all the time, you get used to the lead they require. Ditto with the 1200 fps ones. It isn’t the actual lead that matters, it’s what you practice and become accustomed to. If you practice with one and then suddenly switch to the other, it might make a small difference on 90 degree crossers. But most patterns have at least an effective killing circle of 24″, so at worst you would be giving up 7/24 of your pattern. In fact, I don’t think you’d really notice the difference. The more going away shots you have, the less it matters.

which I and most of  you guys have known for 20 years,,,,

this is in relation to skeet.

 

[Oldblaster]

Not wishing to sound argumentative but if it is not possible to miss by an inch then what is the minimum distance that it is possible to miss ?

"How log is a piece of string?" If you are using a tight choke and the pattern hasn't had a chance to spread too much you could miss by a very small amount, but also too open a pattern and you could be on target and the clay slip through! At the end of the day a miss is still a miss, re-group and call for the next one!

 

[MJJ]

This could go on and on and on.

Don't forget the shot string which is roughly 8 feet long, this by its very nature changes the speed of pellets as the ones in the centre will decelerate at a different rate (slower) than those at the outside of the pattern

Non of this is really relevant because - see it shoot it, miss bugger it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chippy]

I reckon buying the cheapest cartridges in the shop and using the change to shoot more of them will bring results.

 

[move-mount-miss]

I reckon buying the cheapest cartridges in the shop and using the change to shoot more of them will bring results.

Only if they are blue.

 

[chippy]

Only if they are blue.

That's a given. everyone knows that.

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

I'm happy do to a bit of blind testing with people, £250 if you can tell which shell is which from results alone!

If your right the money is yours, if I'm right you pay me. Takers?

Next time you defend your Fitasc title let me supply you with a mixed bag of random shells and a £250 bet tells me your score will suffer as a result. If all shells were indistingishable then everyone would use the same shell and manufacturers woudn't bother changing componants. Mark Winser said he put 2 slower cartridges in for the final pair when winning last week Guess that was a waste of time really should have just used any old cartridge.

 

[EdLyons]

Correct me if I'm wrong, as its all a rather hazy memory...but i don't think Ed's Pro One shells turned up at the FITASC!

Didn't you end up shooting pretty much what was left?!

If only you'd had the proper ones

 

[Jim Wheeler]

Next time you defend your Fitasc title let me supply you with a mixed bag of random shells and a £250 bet tells me your score will suffer as a result. If all shells were indistingishable then everyone would use the same shell and manufacturers woudn't bother changing componants. Mark Winser said he put 2 slower cartridges in for the final pair when winning last week Guess that was a waste of time really should have just used any old cartridge.

I wasn`t gonna say this Shaun,  but yes .he did. the diffs in speed is 50fps I imagine, about1/8 inch on the target  !   :biggrin: .I can only say his missus was happy about it !well done Mark, all in the mind though ,,,,

 

[EdSolomons]

Yeah I shot the first half with pro ones then second half with sov Fitasc.

I expect to be 191 behind last years score as I'm not shooting the world Fitasc this year... Theoretically yes my score would be worse, but not due to the speed. Lack of confidence in equipment!

 

[EdSolomons]

Can't speak for mark, but again in reality 99% mental. Last pair slow moving and at 25 yards. I'm sure someone can do the maths

 

[Nick Selby]

after reading all this thread, I think I will stick to Superfast.... I don't understand half of what is being said and to be honest, would rather keep it that way. I like to keep things simple and I really don't believe paying an extra £60+ per 1000 will make me hit any more clays.... Each to their own and all that.

 

[Doctor Lecter]

we all want to shoot well , many of us are guilty of over analysis  ,   ignorance is bliss  springs to mind !