Barrels in your loft?

[Dug]

Or to be more precise, loft in your barrels. This is a question I would dearly like an answer to, and if it has already been discussed in an earlier thread, I would be grateful for a link.

It seems to me a lot of information is available on shotgun specification, but never an indication of how high, or flat, one shotgun model is likely to shoot relative to another manufacturer's guns. To my mind, this should not be too much to ask when spending thousands of pounds on a new gun, particularly for a shooter keen to stick to a straightforward non-adjustable stock, and without having to faff about with barrel hangers and rib elevations!

Furthermore, I would like to know how the bottom barrel is designed to throw the shot relative to the top barrel, and relative to the rib. Different disciplines involve shooting targets at different ranges, so it seems to me a gun suited to DTL distances will be less than ideal for OT, for example. In certain light conditions, it is sometimes possible to make out the lead shot when standing behind another shooter, even with my far from perfect vision, and I have concluded that a lot of OT targets are missed high with the first barrel and low with the second, suggesting that the majority of non-adjustable trap guns are designed for closer range targets. Makes commercial sense given the relative numbers shooting these disciplines, I suppose, but then again manufacturers might sell more guns if they marketed them as specific to a particular discipline with barrels 'zeroed' to suit rather than suggesting that one trap gun will do for all trap targets.

So I expect a bunch of replies suggesting pattern plates, practice, just shoot the damn thing, don't get bogged down with technicalities, or that full adjustibility is the only answer, but this would be to miss the point. A golfer buying a new driver can inspect its degrees of loft, accurate to fractions of a degree, stamped on the clubhead for his/her contemplation before buying, so why can't shooters be afforded a similar indication of performance?

 

[Santa2512]

I know what your saying and  my penneth worth is to some degree i agree,

you wouldnt stick a new sight on a gun  without zeroing it, and correcting any parralax error with your own vision,

so why should a shotgun be any different. 

Yes there is the argument, that due to the inconsitancies of the shot patter, shot to shot, it would be very difficult,

but i guess what your after is,   "if i look at point  A, and shoot, where is my shot pattern in relation to point A" 

A gun fit and pattern plate would give you a better picture,

for some basic alignment & setup try this , it showed my initial adjustable comb setting was some way off .


:santa:

 

[Wonko the Sane]

It's been my experience that mass produced guns are engineered to shoot both barrels to the same POI and that the rib is calculated to put the POA at that POI looking flat down the rib.  Manufacturing tolerances will affect that to some degree.  That's the way every Beretta and Perazzi I've had shoots as well.  Where the gun shoots for YOU is dependent on stock dimensions and the conformation of YOUR face.  People talk a lot about particular guns shooting high or low when the fact is that the gun shoots high or low for THEM.  

Of course, adjustable ribs negate the rib statement above.

 

[Darkside]

It seems to me a lot of information is available on shotgun specification, but never an indication of how high, or flat, one shotgun model is likely to shoot relative to another manufacturer's guns. To my mind, this should not be too much to ask when spending thousands of pounds on a new gun, particularly for a shooter keen to stick to a straightforward non-adjustable stock, and without having to faff about with barrel hangers and rib elevations!

Furthermore, I would like to know how the bottom barrel is designed to throw the shot relative to the top barrel, and relative to the rib. Different disciplines involve shooting targets at different ranges, so it seems to me a gun suited to DTL distances will be less than ideal for OT, for example. In certain light conditions, it is sometimes possible to make out the lead shot when standing behind another shooter, even with my far from perfect vision, and I have concluded that a lot of OT targets are missed high with the first barrel and low with the second, suggesting that the majority of non-adjustable trap guns are designed for closer range targets. Makes commercial sense given the relative numbers shooting these disciplines, I suppose, but then again manufacturers might sell more guns if they marketed them as specific to a particular discipline with barrels 'zeroed' to suit rather than suggesting that one trap gun will do for all trap targets

Dug, in general the bottom and top barrel should be pointing to the same POI and if you look flat along he rib, that's where it will shoot. Comb height dictates how much rib you will see, everyone's face is a different shape/size, that's how to some people a gun might be too high and to others the same gun might be too low...

As for why people miss OT targets high first barrel and low second...that's got more to do with hold point and gun speed. If you are used to slow moving DTL targets and you go onto a OT layout, you set up to shoot, put your hold point on the marker and call pull. The clay comes out way faster than your DTL bird, you chase after it and power past it missing 'over the top' then you have to slow the gun down/stop the gun and the clay passes you as you fire causing you to 'miss low'...

If manufacturers marked guns 'specific to certain disaplines and zeroed to suit' thet would be talking utter bullsh*t and would know they were!!!

 

[Hamster]

Or to be more precise, loft in your barrels. This is a question I would dearly like an answer to, and if it has already been discussed in an earlier thread, I would be grateful for a link.

It seems to me a lot of information is available on shotgun specification, but never an indication of how high, or flat, one shotgun model is likely to shoot relative to another manufacturer's guns. To my mind, this should not be too much to ask when spending thousands of pounds on a new gun, particularly for a shooter keen to stick to a straightforward non-adjustable stock, and without having to faff about with barrel hangers and rib elevations!

Furthermore, I would like to know how the bottom barrel is designed to throw the shot relative to the top barrel, and relative to the rib. Different disciplines involve shooting targets at different ranges, so it seems to me a gun suited to DTL distances will be less than ideal for OT, for example. In certain light conditions, it is sometimes possible to make out the lead shot when standing behind another shooter, even with my far from perfect vision, and I have concluded that a lot of OT targets are missed high with the first barrel and low with the second, suggesting that the majority of non-adjustable trap guns are designed for closer range targets. Makes commercial sense given the relative numbers shooting these disciplines, I suppose, but then again manufacturers might sell more guns if they marketed them as specific to a particular discipline with barrels 'zeroed' to suit rather than suggesting that one trap gun will do for all trap targets.

So I expect a bunch of replies suggesting pattern plates, practice, just shoot the damn thing, don't get bogged down with technicalities, or that full adjustibility is the only answer, but this would be to miss the point. A golfer buying a new driver can inspect its degrees of loft, accurate to fractions of a degree, stamped on the clubhead for his/her contemplation before buying, so why can't shooters be afforded a similar indication of performance?

An excellent question. I've always had an interest in this sort of thing but luckily for me its effects on ESP are less obvious than super precise Trap disciplines. Standard guns are set up so that with a low rib both barrels converge at 30 yards we're told, this seems to hold true enough since at such distances and a little more besides it is relatively easy to achieve repeat hard breaks with either barrel. Oddly shorter distances can be problematic, I personally believe POI is the cause, many a time really close going aways which look easy but have to be taken quickly, prove difficult to break well.

Early in GD's career when he tried his hand at DT there was a story doing the rounds that he couldn't make his then Beretta sponsored gun do what he could do with a P or was it a Kemen ?! Apparently despite Beretta copying the favourite guns dimensions the scores didn't match. Assuming they were savvy enough to have made similar changes to balance, it's difficult to see what else other than subtle POI difference were the cause.

Had I chosen one of the harder Trap disciplines as my main hobby, I would have spent months getting the right set up for the right distance. As I said I think it matters less with ESP because the sheer variety dictates that you live with mid distance optimisation. In fact I would go as far as to say this issue is why so few people stick to the new fad high ribs for ESP (can't think of any famous names who shoot one).

I also believe POI (all else being equal) is what causes one man to suddenly pick up a gun and find he can shoot it really well, whereas a seemingly similar looking sight picture with another gun produces less favourable results. In the end I'm afraid there is no substitute for experimentation on actual targets at the actual range you happen to most often squeeze off, good luck.

 

[Dug]

Thanks for the replies, guys, I understand each of your points and hats off to sporting shooters with all the different ranges involved there - nightmare! I would still like more discussion on the POI related to the different trap discipline ranges, though. Rifle shooters among you will understand the importance of bullet trajectory, which creates a low POI at very close ranges, a higher POI at mid ranges and increasingly lower POI's beyond the end zero. The bullet passes the line of sight at only two precise points on its trajectory, and in theory at least, so does the shot pattern from each shotgun barrel.

Hamster's comment about standard guns' barrels converging at 30 yards hits the nail on the head. If this is true, it's no wonder OT targets are missed high with the first barrel and low with the second. Any thoughts on the average distance at which OT targets are hit, especially with second barrels?

 

[Darkside]

Dug, rifle shooting principals do not apply to shotguns, is you try to shoot a shotgun like a rifle you will struggle!!! Forget all about bullet trajectories, low POI at close range and high POI at mid range and all the other rifle stuff.

As for what your thinking about OT targets being missed because of POI and distance, you are very, very wrong!!!

 

[Will Hewland]

Yes Dug as above. Get yourself hypnotised to forget all rifle knowledge, or take up golf instead. Trust me rifle users are at a disadvantage over the never- held -a -gun -newbie. Squash players have no advantage when they take up tennis.

 

[Dug]

So the telescopic sight on my Miroku is a bad idea, then?

 

[Will Hewland]

So the telescopic sight on my Miroku is a bad idea, then?

Not at all. It will help you look at the clay that landed far away that you didn't hit. but seriously, as an engineer myself, it took me at least a year to realise that movement, flow and feel is the route to progress with a shotgun. My spreadsheet for target lead didn't last long..

 

[Darkside]

...any sight on your shotgun is a bad idea!!! I sheared the front bead off my Beretta when some twit crashed into my gun on beaters day in the gun bus...I font feel disadvantaged without it and won't be putting another bead on.

 

[Hamster]

Yes Dug as above. Get yourself hypnotised to forget all rifle knowledge, or take up golf instead. Trust me rifle users are at a disadvantage over the never- held -a -gun -newbie. Squash players have no advantage when they take up tennis.

I kind of disagree with that, never hurt me in the slightest and in reality I think most savvy rifle shooters would very quickly realise they need lead and movement to hit a moving target. What is invaluable is their already highly advanced holding/pointing/muscle memory skills which can take months if not years to hone in for a a beginner.

 

[Will Hewland]

I have seen it trap them into not moving and not giving lead. People are different. I once took a group round EJC with an ex Cyprus army guy. 2 ex first 50 targets hit. When I finally held the forend and pushed a foot of lead on for him, the gentle crosser broke. He then had to sit down he was so shocked. Looked like he had been told he was adopted.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Shooting a OT target is an instinctive act for most shooters. I think if you are thinking about the range and what effect it may have on hitting the target you will miss. The lead in this type of shooting is generated by gun speed not a conscious decision to lead the target. A well setup trap gun, I think, will have you making the shot just before you lead the target... but that is all in the subconscious... you are looking at the target and suddenly its time to take the shot, and for me its not a thought process it just happens. I don't think range enters into shooting that target you will either hit or miss based upon your experience of shooting this type of target you get used to seeing what you want to see and this triggers the shot. Well that is how it works for me at least.

 

[Hamster]

Thanks for the replies, guys, I understand each of your points and hats off to sporting shooters with all the different ranges involved there - nightmare! I would still like more discussion on the POI related to the different trap discipline ranges, though. Rifle shooters among you will understand the importance of bullet trajectory, which creates a low POI at very close ranges, a higher POI at mid ranges and increasingly lower POI's beyond the end zero. The bullet passes the line of sight at only two precise points on its trajectory, and in theory at least, so does the shot pattern from each shotgun barrel.

Hamster's comment about standard guns' barrels converging at 30 yards hits the nail on the head. If this is true, it's no wonder OT targets are missed high with the first barrel and low with the second. Any thoughts on the average distance at which OT targets are hit, especially with second barrels?

Dug,

The others are not wrong, there IS a difference between rifles and shotguns but for what it's worth I personally do not believe that you're completely barking up the wrong tree as it were. 

Yes of course you can address issues such as shooting over or underneath targets by repetition practice as well as altering hold points but I believe there is mileage in further investigation (for Trap).

Think of this way, you (everyone) has a certain innate rhythm and tempo which gels with one or the other set of POI/gun/fit/etc; yes of course we can drive around problems but if you had a way of optimising a given guns POI for YOUR specific set of idiosyncrasies I personally would take it.

Why else would guns such as the Krieghoff or Trap oriented Perazzi even offer alterable POI ?

 

[Hamster]

I have seen it trap them into not moving and not giving lead. People are different. I once took a group round EJC with an ex Cyprus army guy. 2 ex first 50 targets hit. When I finally held the forend and pushed a foot of lead on for him, the gentle crosser broke. He then had to sit down he was so shocked. Looked like he had been told he was adopted.

I don't doubt that but the point is once the penny drops he will be miles ahead of a total newbie in terms of knowledge of things like leaning into the gun etc.

 

[jwpzx9r]

...any sight on your shotgun is a bad idea!!! I sheared the front bead off my Beretta when some twit crashed into my gun on beaters day in the gun bus...I font feel disadvantaged without it and won't be putting another bead on.

Everybody is different I suppose I most definitely need my bead it is one of my subconscious sight picture elements.

 

[Will Hewland]

Hammy, that steady rhythm takes years to perfect. Many never achieve it, so the effective POI is a long way away (for now) from being controlled by minute gun dimensions for a beginner. Should his concentration be elsewhere until he can hit 85% on stiff sporting? I just get the image of a beginner seized up by over thinking..

 

[jwpzx9r]

Any thoughts on the average distance at which OT targets are hit, especially with second barrels?

It depends on the shooter but a good OT shooter would break with the first barrel at probably 32m ish the second barrel at 37 ish. But it is very much down to the shooter I was shooting a while back and a very good French international was practicing in the same squad I am convinced he was shooting the target at 75% of the distance I needed ! He only broke a few more than me but he acquired and broke the target far quicker. On the last target he trick shot the target ... called and broke it within 5-10m of the trap house. It was funny because two other shooters talking to me after the round said did you see that lucky so and so hit his last target.... I had to tell the it was deliberate... I have seen him do it on several occasions.