Barrel lengths and accuracy

[TRINITY]

How times have changed. I have recently got back shooting after only dabbling with shooting in the 80's . Back then 28 inch barrels were the norm . 30 inch and no more on specialist trap guns. Cant ever remember 32inch or more except on some specialist wildfowling guns and larger bores. However even 28 inch fell out of fashion and 26inch seemed to be where the smart shooters were at. From what I remember there were loads of good shooters around smashing plenty of Clay's with little 26inch barrels.

There is a saying what goes around comes around , I wonder if going for the shorter barrel could come back in vogue

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Fads are immune to rational consideration.  I suspect that the "Mine's bigger than Your's" fad will be in place for some considerable time.  If you find 28" and 30" barrels to your liking as I do then you're in luck as there are relative bargains galore still.

besta luck

 

[Veryoverworked]

I shoot 30" o/u and as short as a 25" sxs and besides the swing speed of the gun, patterns in respect to choke sizes are not that much different for the same cartridge. I haven't measured velocity, but I've killed some very long distance birds (clays) with the same lead on both guns. If velocity was much different, I don't think that would happen. Obviously, the shot has to accelerate up the barrel from a standing start, but having discussed modern cartridges and powders with a number of manufacturers in the past, I understand acceleration is all but finished well before the muzzle in even short barreled guns. It's all down to the powder. 'Faster' powders will give greater short time acceleration and a perceived sharper recoil. Try shooting a Lyalvale Express World Cup (1500fps) next to a Hull Pro One (1500fps) and you'll see what I mean.

Obviously, recoil and muzzle flip is vastly different between barrel lengths, as there's very little weight out in front of your lead hand with a short barreled gun.

As for chokes, that's a deep subject in its own right. To really understand what's happening, you first needs to establish the true internal bore size of the barrels!

 

[Luke_(NL)]

To really understand what's happening, you first needs to establish the true internal bore size of the barrels!

How so? No calculation is going to improve your shooting. Try until you find the cartridge and choke combination that works for your purpose, in your gun. Use a pattern plate if you'd like to compare or confirm, but most of all, practice. Anything that requires callipers or a calculator is most likely for excuses or distractions.  

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Anything that requires callipers or a calculator is most likely for excuses or distractions.  

or maybe amusement and that would about cover it   :lolu:

 

[Lloyd]

How so? No calculation is going to improve your shooting. Try until you find the cartridge and choke combination that works for your purpose, in your gun. Use a pattern plate if you'd like to compare or confirm, but most of all, practice. Anything that requires callipers or a calculator is most likely for excuses or distractions.  

Being a nerdy anal... anal.. analytical type. Yes, that’s it. Being an analytical type when I started out I wanted to find out what I could about distances, angles, velocities, shot weight. Some rough calcs, a bit of shooting and listening to the many good folks on this forum, I very quickly abandoned the idea  that such notions would make any difference.

I have to say, I’m rather glad of it too as I’ve come to enjoy shooting as more an art form than a science and I’m enjoying learning something which is a complete departure from my normal way of looking at things.

I settled on ½ and ½ because I have and therefore I can confidently break clays at any distance with a ½ choke. To be fair I have/can do it also with ¼ but for me ½ just gives me a warmer fuzzier feeling of the right one to go for. I decided on a pair rather than a ¼ & a ½ because I know I’d be distracted by changing the barrel selector. I don’t mix shot sizes/weights either for the same reason. I worked out that for me at least, keeping things very simple and putting my focus entirely on the process of shooting can earn me maybe an extra ten or even twenty clays per round over just relying entirely on instincts; whereas changing a choke or shot size may earn me one or two clays and that’s assuming it doesn’t interfere with my concentration/confidence and actually cost me much more.

Each to their own I guess though.

 

[Veryoverworked]

How so? No calculation is going to improve your shooting. Try until you find the cartridge and choke combination that works for your purpose, in your gun. Use a pattern plate if you'd like to compare or confirm, but most of all, practice. Anything that requires callipers or a calculator is most likely for excuses or distractions.  

I didn't say it would improve your shooting, only that it was a deep subject, but understanding it may well improve matters.

For arguments sake, consider a gun that has been shot quite a lot with a bore diameter of .734" or had aftermarket overboring undertaken, or even had the barrels lapped out due to corrosion. Extreme overboring goes up to .790"

Because of this, new aftermarket chokes won't actually constrict as you think they might. For instance a skeet choke should constrict by 0.005", but in the first gun example with a worn barrel, it will have a tighter constriction, effectively it steps up one in the league table of chokes and becomes Improved Cylinder

In aftermarket overbored guns it's the same.

To make things more confusing, the english and american choke system are different. What is Improved cylinder in one, is skeet in the other.

And if you get onto fixed choke guns it's even more important to understand bore size to understand how a barrel is choked. I've been into a lot of gun shops over the last 35 years, and it amuses me still when I see a shop owner drop a choke gauge down the end of a fixed choke side-by-side and state it has such-and-such choking.

I've even seen a friend of mine breaking clays out at 70yds consistently with a fixed choke gun which supposedly had skeet/skeet choking.

New shooters shouldn't get hung up on chokes and to understand what your gun is doing with your choke set requires time at a pattern plate with YOUR choice of cartridge.

Edited.

 

[Lloyd]

New shooters shouldn't get hung up on chokes and to understand what your gun is doing with your choke set requires time at a pattern plate with YOUR choice of cartridge

As a new shooter I personally feel my time is better spent at the clay plate. If I ever (highly unlikely) get to such a high standard of skill that my abilities are costing me fewer misses than my choice of choke or cartridge?

So I shoot with a nominal ½ & ½. My gun is set permanently to bottom barrel first. So I have a pair to shoot (real scenario) of a 15 yard L-R midi crosser in a widow between trees and a 55 yard teal and I break both clays in the pair and I miss one of the clays, then the other then miss both.

Now let’s say my gun isn’t manufactured to the claimed bore size. Let’s say my upper barrel is + 0.005” (not exactly precision engineering) over nominal and my bottom barrel is - 0.005” under nominal. So I’m actually shooting, and importantly, breaking clays with 3/8 and 5/8 chokes. I’m using a mix of Hull 100 sporting 8 28g, Gamebore Blue diamond 7 ½ 28g and a handful of Express 21g 7 ½ .

Now, I’ve broken... and missed the 15 yard with 5/8 choke and broken... and missed the 55 yard teal with 3/8 choke. Seems to me the worrying about the choke is going to have more of a negative placebo effect on my shooting than it could help.

Seems to me given my successes and failures I’d be better of spending my energies on practice breaking clays than breaking cardboard.

if I’m ever at the consistent 95ex100 level, I think this could then be something worthwhile considering.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Each to their own I guess though

I think we're in complete agreement Lloyd. My erm, analytical propensities have luckily taken a back seat when it comes to shooting a shotgun. In fact, I do best when I don't think - but just shoot. It's part of the reason why I find clayshooting very relaxing, although less so when I rack up a bunch of O's 

It is more of an art than a science, so I would in fact chuckle if anyone insists on measuring relative bore sizes and arguing all the above. Taking the same gun out and shooting it will tell you if it's fit for purpose, or if you can shoot worth your salt. I would also argue that the story of some guy nailing whatever yardage clays with skeet-skeet says more about his abilities, than about his gun not actually being choked skeet-skeet. But perhaps he's just great at math 

 

[Veryoverworked]

....so I would in fact chuckle if anyone insists on measuring relative bore sizes and arguing all the above.

I wasn't saying anyone should, I was simply explaining that chokes don't actually 'choke' as one might imagine they do. At the end of the day, it's what actually happens at the pattern plate that tells you what a choke and cartridge combination does. Once that's established, take it to the clays.

 

[Westward]

For arguments sake, consider a gun that has been shot quite a lot with a bore diameter of .734" or had aftermarket overboring undertaken, or even had the barrels lapped out due to corrosion. Extreme overboring goes up to .790"

Because of this, new aftermarket chokes won't actually constrict as you think they might. For instance a skeet choke should constrict by 0.005", but in the first gun example with a worn barrel, it will have zero constriction, effectively it's a cylinder choke in that gun - it's doing nothing.

Errrm. Are you sure about this?

 

[Veryoverworked]

Errrm. Are you sure about this?

No, I was tired, it's actually the the way round (doh), skeet becomes IC, cylinder becomes skeet.

I'll get me coat.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

take it to the clays

Agreed.    

 

[Les53]

Forget about accuracy, it plays no part in shotgun shooting. We aim a rifle and point a shotgun. 

In terms of barrel length, a longer barrel tends to be more pointable and steadier in the swing at the expense of weight and inertia. It will have little if any impact upon pellet velocity or spread, that’s determined by other factors.

How your guns perform at different distances through the same chokes would best be determined by the pattern board. Remember though, chokes of the same constriction vary slightly between manufacturers. What’s a 1/2 to one may be a 1/4 to another.

Be careful not to overthink shotgun shooting (something rifle shooters are often minded to do). Hitting a moving target’s a fairly simple process that can easily be made unnecessarily complicated. Keep your head on the gun, match gun speed with target speed and have the right lead. Do all three and it’s hard to miss.

Agree with all that Jan, but the last sentence.........

 

[Wonko the Sane]

This has all be most illuminating ! !  I'm still not clear on two things tho - how does one wear out a shotgun barrel and do 71/2's or 8's do that faster?

many thanks

Charlie

 

[Les53]

This has all be most illuminating ! !  I'm still not clear on two things tho - how does one wear out a shotgun barrel and do 71/2's or 8's do that faster?

many thanks

Charlie

Oh come on Charlie! Now you’re opening a can or worms! Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance!

 

[timps]

By shooting a lot through of shot through it or going mad with the phosphor bronze brush and a cordless drill

But In the UK It’s easily answered a shotgun is considered out of proof and thus worn out when the bore size reaches ten thousandths of an inch in excess of the size stamped on the barrels at proofing and all joking apart this does happen on well used guns.

Strange thing is that it’s not illegal to own it, shoot it or gift an out of proof gun but it is illegal to sell or offer it up for sale in this state.

so if anyone wants me to check there gun I’m happy to provide that service and obviously they can gift me the gun when if it does should fail.