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Hamster

Shoots are too easy nowadays

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Hamster

You can even do a search based on your own county and again I bet they names will appear in pretty much the right order in terms of ability. The system works more than adequately well. 

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Bebo

Playing with the search criteria in the rankings bit of the CPSA website is fun.  Trouble is, however I sort it I don't even come out as the best shot in my house!

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Sian
1 hour ago, Hamster said:

You can even do a search based on your own county and again I bet they names will appear in pretty much the right order in terms of ability. The system works more than adequately well. 

I think that works more towards the higher classes where consistency is less of an issue even in harsh weather or other criteria.    I did a search on South East B Class and what we all finished on average wise issue 54 and I came out 37th in the list.  I did not specify how many grounds we needed to shoot.   The only name I recognised as a serious shooter was Glen Goldthorpe, the others I either did not know or knew very little about.  It is interested the difference also in the amount of targets that have been shot.   I then did the same with minimum of 5 grounds and I was 21st, then 10 grounds I was 6th, then 20 grounds I was 4th and then 30 grounds - I was the only one left.  I love playing with that.  I don't really know what my point is to be fair other than so many factors play into how well you can do at a shoot at my sort of level where one day I am a demon and on the very same day or the day after I can be a numpty.  What is very real is that I do travel to many different grounds, all year round and have shot in weather where I should really be committed and all of this will have affected my average without going into my hormonal fluctuations and days where illness really should have made me not go. I also admit that perhaps two or three shoots in one day will have some affect also no doubt but I am only here once and I am on the catch up so I am greedy.  

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Hamster
5 minutes ago, Sian said:

I think that works more towards the higher classes where consistency is less of an issue even in harsh weather or other criteria.    I did a search on South East B Class and what we all finished on average wise issue 54 and I came out 37th in the list.  I did not specify how many grounds we needed to shoot.   The only name I recognised as a serious shooter was Glen Goldthorpe, the others I either did not know or knew very little about.   I then did the same with minimum of 5 grounds and I was 21st, then 10 grounds I was 6th, then 20 grounds I was 4th and then 30 grounds - I was the only one left.  I love playing with that.  I don't really know what my point is to be fair other than so many factors play into how well you can do at a shoot at my sort of level where one day I am a demon and on the very same day or the day after I can be a numpty.  What is very real is that I do travel to many different grounds, all year round and have shot in weather where I should really be committed and all of this will have affected my average without going into my hormonal fluctuations and days where illness really should have made me not go. I also admit that perhaps two or three shoots in one day will have some affect also no doubt but I am only here once and I am on the catch up so I am greedy.

As you rightly point out yours is a very extreme example because of the sheer numbers of reg targets you shoot which by definition means doing several in one day at times (which won't help if you factor in fatigue and you being a slight person) and the reality that it also means you won't be able to avoid poor weather.

Respectfully though my point was more aimed towards demonstrating that the top layer is easily definable by their relative performances - the thing that has taken even me by surprise is how (relatively speaking) far you can be from the Top 20 and still not only be a household name but a multiple winner which again shows high percentage averages aren't the be all and end all. 

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Sian
9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

As you rightly point out yours is a very extreme example because of the sheer numbers of reg targets you shoot which by definition means doing several in one day at times (which won't help if you factor in fatigue and you being a slight person) and the reality that it also means you won't be able to avoid poor weather.

Respectfully though my point was more aimed towards demonstrating that the top layer is easily definable by their relative performances - the thing that has taken even me by surprise is how (relatively speaking) far you can be from the Top 20 and still not only be a household name but a multiple winner which again shows high percentage averages aren't the be all and end all. 

I agree Hammie and thanks for calling me slight because really I am a little tubby toots.  

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Westward

I remember one evening a couple of winters back I was idly floating around the WWW and I came across a long and fairly acrimonious thread on a site called Shotgunworld. They were arguing about suggested changes to the classification system for sporting clays in the US. Many Americans subscribe to Charlie's view that averages can't possibly work for sporting clays because of the wide variety in difficulty level and weather etc. Apparently they have a much wider range of difficulty between soft local shoots and tougher major events.

It was pretty clear that most of the posters didn't really understand that one poor score doesn't ruin your average for months as seems to happen with American skeet and trap where the top shooters tend to stay home on wet or windy days. It was also obvious that the system of measuring people in terms of where they were placed on each shoot as opposed to what their actual score was and awarding points (or punches as they're called) may seem more fair on a per shoot basis but it's heavily weighted in favour of the higher volume shooters.

I'm not a classification slave but I like the fact that if I were, our averaging system works just as well for those who shoot 1000 targets pa as for those who shoot 20000.

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tiptop

Just out of curiosity, who are, and where are all of these people that think that shoots are getting to easy?

I have never come across, or been at a shoot where I have heard people say, "not going back there because that was to easy".

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Sian
10 minutes ago, Westward said:

 

I'm not a classification slave but I like the fact that if I were, our averaging system works just as well for those who shoot 1000 targets pa as for those who shoot 20000.

I don't think it does but I don't have the answer to it so it is what it is and that's that.  

11 minutes ago, tiptop said:

Just out of curiosity, who are, and where are all of these people that think that shoots are getting to easy?

I have never come across, or been at a shoot where I have heard people say, "not going back there because that was to easy".

I have not heard "its too easy"   just "it's poop" or "it's on the steadier side".  

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tiptop
2 minutes ago, Sian said:

I don't think it does but I don't have the answer to it so it is what it is and that's that.  

I have not heard "its too easy"   just "it's poop" or "it's on the steadier side".  

Exactly Sian.

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chippy
1 hour ago, tiptop said:

Just out of curiosity, who are, and where are all of these people that think that shoots are getting to easy?

I have never come across, or been at a shoot where I have heard people say, "not going back there because that was to easy".

I've said it several times. When C class is won in the 90s it's to easy..  in fact when B class is in the 90s it's to easy..

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tiptop
17 minutes ago, chippy said:

I've said it several times. When C class is won in the 90s it's to easy..  in fact when B class is in the 90s it's to easy..

Really?....I need to find these shoots, so I can reach the dizzy heights of AA.:wink:

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chippy
4 minutes ago, tiptop said:

Really?....I need to find these shoots, so I can reach the dizzy heights of AA.:wink:

A mate of mine has just gone from B to AAA

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Sian
16 minutes ago, chippy said:

A mate of mine has just gone from B to AAA

So are you saying your mate sticks to easy shoots and has therefore gone from B to AAA?  I know someone who was C about a year back and has gone to A now and is putting in a AA average but he is genuinely really good.

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GlawsterCodger
1 hour ago, chippy said:

A mate of mine has just gone from B to AAA

These 90 to win C & and your chum B to AAA in six months? where pray tell are these shoots.

Always held high regard for those that can put a 90+ in at at a reg ESP, not changing that anytime soon based on the events Ive shot

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JER2
5 hours ago, Westward said:

I remember one evening a couple of winters back I was idly floating around the WWW and I came across a long and fairly acrimonious thread on a site called Shotgunworld. They were arguing about suggested changes to the classification system for sporting clays in the US. Many Americans subscribe to Charlie's view that averages can't possibly work for sporting clays because of the wide variety in difficulty level and weather etc. Apparently they have a much wider range of difficulty between soft local shoots and tougher major events.

It was pretty clear that most of the posters didn't really understand that one poor score doesn't ruin your average for months as seems to happen with American skeet and trap where the top shooters tend to stay home on wet or windy days. It was also obvious that the system of measuring people in terms of where they were placed on each shoot as opposed to what their actual score was and awarding points (or punches as they're called) may seem more fair on a per shoot basis but it's heavily weighted in favour of the higher volume shooters.

I'm not a classification slave but I like the fact that if I were, our averaging system works just as well for those who shoot 1000 targets pa as for those who shoot 20000.

You're dead right.  Most Americans have zero knowledge of the CPSA classification system but are convinced it can't possibly work here. 

The overwhelming majority of naysayers here also have never, EVER shot in the UK but are happy to tell you why our shoots are so much different than yours.  Maybe they are, maybe they're not; but the people complaining speak from ignorance and are convinced they are correct.

I am not a fan of the punch system for the reason you mention.  The reason Master class is so large in the US is because if you are moderately talented and shoot a lot (including a bunch of small bore events) you can accumulate the number of punches to get in.  Add to all that the fact that NSCA shooters can refuse to be down-classed, and you realize that our system is a joke meant only to promote shooting (collection of NSCA target fees) and not to provide any meaningful stratification by skill.

I wouldn't mind a straight up average-based classification like yours.

Nor would I mind a classification system where one's score is indexed as a % of the high gun score; or a system where one's overall finishing position (not just within class) is used to assign a percentile rank then the percentiles averaged over time.  Of course, the class cutoffs should be revised a few times a year and based on a normal distribution, not unlike your issue system.  We might be seeing the seeds of the latter being sown with the introduction last year of the Current Class Ratio (CCR) as a supplemental to punches in up or down classing.

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Westward

Target fees?? Does that mean the NSCA collects money for every registered target shot?

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Hamster
4 hours ago, tiptop said:

Just out of curiosity, who are, and where are all of these people that think that shoots are getting to easy?

I have never come across, or been at a shoot where I have heard people say, "not going back there because that was to easy".

People tend to mask it by saying soft or my own favourite "steady", no harm in that whatsoever because at the end of the day they're right as there really are such shoots which cater to the less serious but what they forget in the process is overall context. 

In my neck of the woods (which now prolly includes Churchill's and Owls Lodge) the only shoot that could justifiably be called steady is Horne, not so much because the layout as a whole is easy or that many manage 95+, trust me they don't, 😂 or they'd be there kerchinging the £100 quid wouldn't they but because they have a nasty habit of throwing samey single on reports and certain stands don't appear to change much. Therefore when you finish with a 92 a) you don't feel you've shot well and b) you get careless with the bankers. The latter is why there is a clear pecking order even within AAA where the true Greats never moan about the targets "quality" but instead prove theirs. ;) 

It's a perfectly pragmatic desire to want more challenging targets but you must not lose sight of the overall picture, one thing the brave boyz easily overlook is that there is a world of difference between the mentality and mindset of a AAA and AA even compared to a B or less, some people may barely have the means or time to shoot 1 or 2 shoots a month and to them too many "big" targets may well be a poison chalice. Incidentally the last time I politely and articulately asked what "big" meant things went downhill rather fast. 😂😘 People like to give it large sometimes but baulk when it comes to having a cogent exchange. 

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JER2
25 minutes ago, Westward said:

Target fees?? Does that mean the NSCA collects money for every registered target shot?

$0.07 per, to be exact.

So you collect money on every target thrown in any registered shoot, and for that you sell a product (punches) which costs nothing to produce.

Nice business model!

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Bebo
45 minutes ago, Hamster said:

People tend to mask it by saying soft or my own favourite "steady", no harm in that whatsoever because at the end of the day they're right as there really are such shoots which cater to the less serious but what they forget in the process is overall context. 

Trouble is, individuals judgement on what is soft will vary. 

I finished at West London on Saturday with a new PB (as did several others on here).  At least two of us felt that the shoot could be described as soft.  However, when the scores came out, they didn't look particularly different from what you would expect at a typical reg shoot.  If you're having a good day and hitting everything, will it not feel like the shoot is 'soft'?  There were three stands at WLSS that had crossers coming from a way out on the banks that were moving with a bit of pace.  I think I missed one out of 12 of them and didn't think they were terribly taxing.  If I hadn't been having such a good day and wasn't moving the gun so well, I may well have considered them to be challenging targets.  Whereas the driven stand, which was probably a piece of cake for those that shoot driven targets well, was far from soft for me.

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Wonko the Sane

 

I don't know this for a fact AFA sporting goes in the US, but in ATA trap the trend over the years has been to soften the targets to silliness supposedly to keep the hacks  pacified with The Holy Average Card to sooth the impossibility of winning the 200 target miss and outs.  The best still win of course.  From what I've read and heard around it seems that NSCA is sliding into this paradigm thru the last few years with the implementation of their averages card.

I have to admit that your class system is somewhat vague to me as the above posts are saying different things about how the averages are set.  If some scores are thrown out - who decides which shoots and which scores?  All in all it seems to me that sort of manipulation is only giving the system less cred than a straight up who GAF how easy the targets were?

Hamster's comment below is what I'm talking about

6 hours ago, Hamster said:

Respectfully though my point was more aimed towards demonstrating that the top layer is easily definable by their relative performances - the thing that has taken even me by surprise is how (relatively speaking) far you can be from the Top 20 and still not only be a household name but a multiple winner which again shows high percentage averages aren't the be all and end all. 

1 hour ago, JER2 said:

Nor would I mind a classification system where one's score is indexed as a % of the high gun score; or one's overall finishing position (not just within class) is used to assign a percentile rank.  We might be seeing the seeds of the latter being sown with the introduction last year of the Current Class Ratio (CCR) as a supplemental to punches in up or down classing.

And that in essence is nothing more than Lewis classification

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Bebo
12 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

I have to admit that your class system is somewhat vague to me as the above posts are saying different things about how the averages are set.  If some scores are thrown out - who decides which shoots and which scores?  All in all it seems to me that sort of manipulation is only giving the system less cred than a straight up who GAF how easy the targets were?

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Hamster
49 minutes ago, Bebo said:

Trouble is, individuals judgement on what is soft will vary. 

I finished at West London on Saturday with a new PB (as did several others on here).  At least two of us felt that the shoot could be described as soft.  However, when the scores came out, they didn't look particularly different from what you would expect at a typical reg shoot.  If you're having a good day and hitting everything, will it not feel like the shoot is 'soft'?  There were three stands at WLSS that had crossers coming from a way out on the banks that were moving with a bit of pace.  I think I missed one out of 12 of them and didn't think they were terribly taxing.  If I hadn't been having such a good day and wasn't moving the gun so well, I may well have considered them to be challenging targets.  Whereas the driven stand, which was probably a piece of cake for those that shoot driven targets well, was far from soft for me.

Precisely my point, yes there is such a thing as a soft layout but don't anyone go thinking that means you will automatically fill your boots and shoot well above your average. 

51 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

 

I have to admit that your class system is somewhat vague to me as the above posts are saying different things about how the averages are set.  If some scores are thrown out - who decides which shoots and which scores?  All in all it seems to me that sort of manipulation is only giving the system less cred than a straight up who GAF how easy the targets were?

 

That's simple, if you bang in a score that is more than 10% below your own personal period average, that is deemed to be unrepresentative of your true ability, this does have critics for and against but it seems to fix more problems that it creates in my opinion. 

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chippy

 a shoot local to me is always known as being stiff. but last sunday the owner softened it because of several complaints. now my average over the previous 7 shoots there is 75.4 with a high of 82, last sunday i shot 93. As a shooter in the bottom of A class i should not be hitting 93. 96 won A and 2x 97s were high. 

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Hamster
5 minutes ago, chippy said:

 a shoot local to me is always known as being stiff. but last sunday the owner softened it because of several complaints. now my average over the previous 7 shoots there is 75.4 with a high of 82, last sunday i shot 93. As a shooter in the bottom of A class i should not be hitting 93. 96 won A and 2x 97s were high. 

Sounds like it was over softened, not an easy job as it takes a lot of experience to set a shoot with a HG score in mind. 

If I had to take a guess I'd say it sounds like every stand was given a make over when perhaps tweaking three or four would have been adequate. 

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JER2
2 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

And that in essence is nothing more than Lewis classification

No, it's not even close. 

The problem with fixing our classification system is that nobody wants to stop and think about what is being proposed.  Instead, every proposal is met with an immediate "that's been tried and didn't work/that will never work" knee jerk and given zero consideration.

That's why I've stopped giving a sh*t about it and never plan to bring it up with the NSCA again.  I just shoot.  If I punch I punch, if I don't I don't.

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