But it does set the eye to rib height. Cast on/off sets the position of the eye central to the rib. After all its the comb where you place your cheek, and the eye is usually above it
Gun stock question
- Thread starter Davy_B
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Some of what is being said here makes no sense at all. Lets change the scenario a bit. I have a gun that fits me perfectly and shoots exactly where I look. I routinely set my gun hold with the bottom barrel resting on the front edge of the fosse it affords me a comfortable shooting position. If I now change the pitch by lets say a dramatic -10 degrees. What happens? Well the angle at which the gun now hits my shoulder has changed and the barrels are now pointing well below my normal gun hold position so I have to raise my gun to get to my usual gun hold point... But once I do that my eye is in exactly the same position above the rib and my site picture will be exactly the same ... however now I am not comfortable my body is not in the correct position. If I call for a target though the gun will still shoot where I am looking , the thing that may make me miss is the position of my body and how that effect my target pick up not where the gun is pointing. Just my opinion but to me pitch is a method of adapting a gun to make it more comfortable for the shooter not to change the POI.
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I wasn't going to get involved with this one but here goes :
100% above the bead is one helluva high shooting gun, hardly just a bit so are you absolutely sure that is the case first of all ? I say this because I have owned a Kronos multi choke Trap gun and it shot a perfect 60/40 and removing the middle rib and fitting an adj comb made zero difference in POI. The reply most likely to materially help you is that of Will Hewland who suggests lowering AND fitting an adj comb, this means that the gunsmith will shave a few mm off the comb height before installing the mech which in turn leaves you enough up and down movement choice to let you experiment and fine tune things.
Pitch is a very important part of the gun fit equation but in and of itself I would be amazed if you could "cure" such a POI issue. Geometrically speaking if you lay the gun on a flat surface and place washers one way or the other then you would be forgiven for thinking it is going to alter things one way or the other and admittedly "advice" on the internet from experienced sources is rather contradictory; the odd high achiever thinks it's a goer whereas respected gunsmiths as well as knowledgeable shooters believe it is insignificant to any meaningful degree. The main purpose of pitch is to more easily facilitate and accommodate different mounts given our shoulder/chest area is so unique from person to person - that translates into a far better recoil phase.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
No question that I'm a geometry kinda guy but pitch will most def affect the "feel" of the gun, particularly the perceived recoil - - just as Hamster notes. Close to zero from the negative side works best for me and I think that is what Will is saying too.
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westley
Well-known member
I did not lay the gun down and measure it in any way shape or form, I just simply SHOT THE DAMNED thing. The same gun used for the first time in my ownership, and fitted with the usual red hard rubber Miroku trap pad shot 23/25 on DTL (never my 'forte' anyway). Because of slight bruising to my shoulder/upper arm, I changed the pad for a Kick-Eeze that I already had. I went out and shot a 14/25. Returning to the clubhouse I replaced the pad with the original Miroku pad, returning a 24/25 this time. All of this was done in the presence of several witnesses (who could not explain it either !). I then got a far better Trap shot than me to try it, and the same results were achieved. The Miroku pad is deeply curved to fit into the shoulder pocket, the Kick-Eeze is dead flat, with no curve. We concluded (rightly or wrongly) that the Miroku pad came into the same place EVERY time, the Kick-Eeze did not, therefore the gun was more capable of being 'mis-mounted'. After conversations with Dave Izzard, a far greater Trap shooter than I will ever be, I bought and fitted an Isis 'Green' pad. After fitting that, the gun certainly felt better, when I was shooting it. I also altered the pitch with the 2 lead washers. NOW we all know and accept that doing that achieved absolutely nothing, apart from enabling me to resume using my 'normal sight pictures' for certain targets and killing them with regular monotony (which I had NOT been doing) and having to 'blot' out any rising, going away targets (Teal, DTL etc.) which I had been shooting well under, in order to break them and all without the expense of having an adjustable comb fitted. All I am suggesting is, BEFORE you dash out and get the cure all adjustable comb, try the pitch alteration for FREE !
Oldblaster
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We are all different, whatever works! Altering the pitch of the recoil pad, can help in make the gun fit into the pocket better, resulting in a more positive mount.
ips
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from my experience you would have to put a lot of weight on or a lot off to have and noticeable difference to comb height. Anyway if you shave the 5mm off and you do lose or gain then you could have it butchered, I mean made adjustable at a future date. Just a tpught but is there enough cast on it ? Lack of cast can force you to put more face over the comb on order to compensate and as a result pinch more skin thus effectively raising the comb height. Out of interest what does comb height measure ?Cause im currently loseing weight were i could end up with a skinnier cheek then i could need to rise it again . Nothings simple eh
ok now im totally confused lots of terms being used that i dont really understand . but anyway according to zolis webpage the drop at comb is 30-31 mm on the trap stock
my old miroku Trap had 35mm drop and i had somewhere around 85/15 to 90/10 pattern with that so i was thinking that it made sense that the stock was just too high for me on the zoli and that explained why my pattern was so high?? no ??
my old miroku Trap had 35mm drop and i had somewhere around 85/15 to 90/10 pattern with that so i was thinking that it made sense that the stock was just too high for me on the zoli and that explained why my pattern was so high?? no ??
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Jezek
Active member
Davy_B, the dimensions of other guns have no clues as to what's going on here.
Fiddling with the pad won't do anything about the POI.
What we need to know is how much rib you see. Is there space between the beads? How much? Here's how to tell us:
Stack a coin or two or more just on the muzzle-side of the mid bead. Tell us what coins and how many you needed to just touch the front bead.
Then we will know at least what might work. And what won't, plenty of which you have read here already.
Jezek
Fiddling with the pad won't do anything about the POI.
What we need to know is how much rib you see. Is there space between the beads? How much? Here's how to tell us:
Stack a coin or two or more just on the muzzle-side of the mid bead. Tell us what coins and how many you needed to just touch the front bead.
Then we will know at least what might work. And what won't, plenty of which you have read here already.
Jezek
balltrap
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How many times have you heard when somebody who picks your gun up and mounts it say ( i could shoot that ).....because it feels nice thats all !.........learn to shoot it and not try and alter it to make it shoot where you think it should ! I have a few guns that all fit but i know i have to shoot where the gun shoots !
dont have a mid bead :-/
going by this chart which is right ?
because my eye is a good bit higher than B on this
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Will Hewland
Well-known member
A is conventionally right. B is OK if you're used to it.
raise B up about 8mm and thats where i am
this is a stock pic of an eye but the bead would be roughly at the bottom of the brown ring under his eye
EDIT roughly done with paint
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Jezek
Active member
Thanks, Dayy.
OK, now we know what you can do if you decide to, which you most certainly should (pending a test which is linked below.) As reluctant as you are to grind on your stock, that's what will fix your problem. And that's all that will fix your problem.
What we needed to see if you lowered the stock would you still be high enough over the receiver to see over it. You are.
Now what? Well, just one thing before you get the tools out. You have yet to convince (some of) us that you are too high over the beads, though I am certain you are. The question is "how much?"
Here's how you find out:
http://www.claytargettesting.com/POI/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf
Man, that looks like a lot of work! Well, you can stumble hopelessly around with the other advice on this thread, or you can find out what's going on, in numerical detail. And fix it.
Look, Davy, you have a lot invested in that gun and want to shoot it well. For you it's likely simply all screwed up. In this thread, you have been subjected to about the largest dose of rotten advice I've read, the worst being "Learn to shoot it."
Sure, and aim below the bird until you are in your first shoot-off and unconsciously revert to way you naturally shoot? Give me a break! Wrestle the gun to support your style of shooting, not the other way around!
Make sure, sure, sure, that it really is shooting where we both think it is. You don't need a certified stockmaker to get this done. You need a rasp, some sandpaper, come refinish fluid, a some winter evenings when you will have to miss the Archers.
Really, really, you can do it. Truth be known, as a purchaser of a dozen "custom" stocks, I'll tell you only you can do it.
Jezek
OK, now we know what you can do if you decide to, which you most certainly should (pending a test which is linked below.) As reluctant as you are to grind on your stock, that's what will fix your problem. And that's all that will fix your problem.
What we needed to see if you lowered the stock would you still be high enough over the receiver to see over it. You are.
Now what? Well, just one thing before you get the tools out. You have yet to convince (some of) us that you are too high over the beads, though I am certain you are. The question is "how much?"
Here's how you find out:
http://www.claytargettesting.com/POI/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf
Man, that looks like a lot of work! Well, you can stumble hopelessly around with the other advice on this thread, or you can find out what's going on, in numerical detail. And fix it.
Look, Davy, you have a lot invested in that gun and want to shoot it well. For you it's likely simply all screwed up. In this thread, you have been subjected to about the largest dose of rotten advice I've read, the worst being "Learn to shoot it."
Sure, and aim below the bird until you are in your first shoot-off and unconsciously revert to way you naturally shoot? Give me a break! Wrestle the gun to support your style of shooting, not the other way around!
Make sure, sure, sure, that it really is shooting where we both think it is. You don't need a certified stockmaker to get this done. You need a rasp, some sandpaper, come refinish fluid, a some winter evenings when you will have to miss the Archers.
Really, really, you can do it. Truth be known, as a purchaser of a dozen "custom" stocks, I'll tell you only you can do it.
Jezek
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Will Hewland
Well-known member
I would like to see a few photos of you with the gun mounted. Side view and from the muzzle. I don't think we have the whole puzzle here maybe..
Paul120
Well-known member
Using a Browning/Miroku I find A would work well and shoot where I'm looking . However, I need to set My perazzi up as B to shoot where I'm looking. I've come to this conclusion after lots of experimenting with both makes. Initially I struggled with the Perazzi as it was set up as my Browning. It only came together with more height on the stock. Putting the additional height on the Browning made it worse to the same degree. I did have a ZOLI for a short time and it seemed to shoot similar to the perazzi. Still working out the Beretta but it does seem to need more height than the Miroku.
Went today to have my gunfit checked today he agreed that the stock was far far too high for me he also said the cast on the gun wasn’t enough for me and was causing me to cant the gun. He said that the toe was wrong (he didn’t say wrong he described how it was wrong but I cant remember exactly what he said ) that it was slightly digging into my chest and that it may be causing the gun to recoil up when firing (which I hadn’t noticed but he was right, he later showed me a recording of me firing the gun and it did slightly) he also suggested that the trigger was a small bit too close to me . he said my mount was consistent and didn’t change between mounts. Take into account im far from an average sized guy . at 6ft 5 and nearly 28 stone the standard setup of the gun didn’t suit and he suggested getting a custom stock made
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Jezek
Active member
OK, Davy, you now have a choice. Modify your own stock (and render it unsalable) or get a custom stock.
I have had custom stocks made by K (1), D (1), L (1), A (2), P (any number), and Wenig (several) here in the US.
The K, L, and A (!) stocks were unshootable. The A's for example, had "double montecarlos" and had my ears ringing (really) in three shot, and face bloodied in 25. The L was just all wrong, an inch longer then the one we settled on in in Y and a rollover rather than the conventional one I had paid an extra $800 for to get nice wood, The P's set up at the factory were not any good but the ones made at the Grand American (when they did it there) were about right. The D might have been OK had the gun been other than utterly unreliable, never (really) finishing a round of 25 without a disqualifying problem.
The Wenig New Americans have been quite good and only needed to be replaced by ones with more offset to right and some rasping, sanding, and finishing to make them useful. They have since been able to make some that were almost OK, if not perfect, And "perfect" is all that is acceptable, and so they too needed some work to match them to my- lets say- "fleshy" physiogmony.
I have also had a "fitting' done at a famous UK shooting ground and it was as slapdash as you can imagine, being based on the use of a try-stock that must have been 100 years old and was so loose and worn out that it had to be twisted back into shape after every shot and was thereafter measured with Vernier calipers, if you can believe it.
I have concluded that only the shooter can make a stock that really, really fits.
It's up to you, but I have spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars with stockmakers and generally come up empty, with the exception of P (sometimes) and Wenig in the US (usually). I also have read most of the "fitting" pieces Clayshooting UK and am not impressed.
It is all too easy (and likely) to get matched up with someone who will make a stock for you based on his or her beliefs, not your needs. Eventually, you are going to need to have to a stock that fits you and only you, and I think you are the only one that can do that.
Jezek
I have had custom stocks made by K (1), D (1), L (1), A (2), P (any number), and Wenig (several) here in the US.
The K, L, and A (!) stocks were unshootable. The A's for example, had "double montecarlos" and had my ears ringing (really) in three shot, and face bloodied in 25. The L was just all wrong, an inch longer then the one we settled on in in Y and a rollover rather than the conventional one I had paid an extra $800 for to get nice wood, The P's set up at the factory were not any good but the ones made at the Grand American (when they did it there) were about right. The D might have been OK had the gun been other than utterly unreliable, never (really) finishing a round of 25 without a disqualifying problem.
The Wenig New Americans have been quite good and only needed to be replaced by ones with more offset to right and some rasping, sanding, and finishing to make them useful. They have since been able to make some that were almost OK, if not perfect, And "perfect" is all that is acceptable, and so they too needed some work to match them to my- lets say- "fleshy" physiogmony.
I have also had a "fitting' done at a famous UK shooting ground and it was as slapdash as you can imagine, being based on the use of a try-stock that must have been 100 years old and was so loose and worn out that it had to be twisted back into shape after every shot and was thereafter measured with Vernier calipers, if you can believe it.
I have concluded that only the shooter can make a stock that really, really fits.
It's up to you, but I have spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars with stockmakers and generally come up empty, with the exception of P (sometimes) and Wenig in the US (usually). I also have read most of the "fitting" pieces Clayshooting UK and am not impressed.
It is all too easy (and likely) to get matched up with someone who will make a stock for you based on his or her beliefs, not your needs. Eventually, you are going to need to have to a stock that fits you and only you, and I think you are the only one that can do that.
Jezek
