Baggers...How, Why, When? Truth or Fiction?

[radrac]

Prompted by Jasper's comments re C class at Kegworth being won with an 83 I thought I would start a thread that many would have an interest in, and partly to educate me a little in the "dark arts" that many seem to think exist, particularly in C.

At risk of boring any who have read my previous posts I have been shooting for seven months and reg comps for four months. I am fortunate to be able to practice more than most and to receive the ongoing benefit of a great education at OLSS. Shooting has enabled me to begin competitive sport again at an age that I thought it was unlikely to happen; I have no interest in just being okay and so have committed myself accordingly. After (a quite normal...I think) period of "finding myself" and stumbling through 40s, 50s, and 60s, I won (jointly) my first C class last weekend at the Shooting Club Upavon with a 73, and this weekend shot a 74 at Gunsite Marlborough. Obviously if progress is made at a similar pace I should break 80 at some stage in the next six months of this issue.

So the questions are....

1) How many winning C class with these kind of scores do not have my naturally progressing profile?

2) What would the normal profile of a "bagger" be?

3) What cynical practices do "baggers" engage in?

4) Does it make financial sense?

5) Is it a practice that is significant enough that the whole shooting community should be concerned?

6) Is it just a mirage that shooters see when confronted with statistical outliers that occur in any form of life?

Over to the "grey beards" of the community to educate an innocent and naieve newbie! :huh:

 

[Robo]

Great topic radrac ... I'm also a new registered shooter in the CPSA (November 2011) and am working my way through C class, I'm putting in the time and effort to try and move up .

I've not ever won any money in C class as yet , I am often in the mid to high 60s and shot my PB (73) a few weeks ago , I can't understand any shooter who apparently " sandbags" ? I also don't understand all this political stuff about the CPSA ... All I want to do is get out there and shoot and enjoy the ride of trying to better my ability in compitions

Rob

 

[tiptop]

There will always be the progressive shooters in any class, trying their best to acheive their level best and trying to win.

My understanding of the so called "sandbagger" is the person/people who only shoot the minimum amount of registered targets each year to get a clasification usually C class,although knowing they are a lot better shot.

They then enter all the majors,big sponsored shoots etc or competitions that will base them on their cpsa classification to try to clean up,they do not appear at competitions were they would be classsified on the day if they did not have a classification because they would not be in C class thus not winning anything.

So they enter 3-4 registered shoots a year only, to gain their classification © and hope that non of the up and coming progressive shooters will beat them in the majors, big sponsored shoots taking the cash,guns etc whatever the prizes maybe.

True or fiction?

Who really knows (it always livens things up when mentioned though)

 

[Fuzrat]

Quite honestly if this really is the case, why wasnt C at the EO won with a 90 odd? if you're gonna do it I would make absolutley sure I put in an unbeatable one that an up and comer like our mate snipey couldnt beat

 

[tiptop]

You would only have to win one a year to make financal sense whether it be the EO (£300),BO,Beretta world(Brietling watch £2000) any comp where the the prize may be a shotgun in each class.

As i said they hope no up and coming gun beats them. Snipey shot that well it put him up amongst the A, AA.guns and well deserved to as he has put the time and effort in.

(livens it up)

Any other theories to this myth?

 

[timps]

I once shot a 91 when I was in B class which was also 2nd in A class and 1 off the A class win, sat around waiting for my prize money at the end of the shoot I heard quite a few grumblings and remarks this then becomes a bagger won B class with a 91 story.

My vast winnings just covered my entry fee and I was still out of pocket for cartridges and travel so as a money making exercise it was a total failure. ^_^

So I personally don’t think it goes on for your normal registered shoots, and the problem with staying away from registered shoots means you could just get used to the targets at your local ground putting in fantastic scores but unable to replicate when visiting different grounds due to the lack of target memory (sporting).

It would be worth it for the £2000 watch or £1000 gun (Essex masters) I guess, but it’s a lot of work for the sporting shooter.

Also if you were to throw 4 shoots to stay in C class that’s £35 entry, £25 in cartridges = £240 + travel that soon eats into any profits if it’s just a money making exercise.

 

[tiptop]

Maybe its the slight profit and the glory of the medal.

Who knows?

Even if they really exist.

 

[Hamster]

Like others so far I don't really think it goes on in a proper manipulative way in sporting. Many moons ago I met a Welsh (no offence, just fact) builder who told me he deliberately dropped one or two DTL targets to keep down a class, not a hint of irony in his voice but he clearly meant it so it does go on!

I was also told by a regular shooter that he'd witnessed people with calculators at skeet reg shoots. I hit the reg scene amongst B shooters and due to lack of funds and talent it took me a few organic years to break into AA and along the way I won something like £35, if that; the pot always went to people with AA scores but that was in the days when a mere 100 targets got you a class and you could drop a class within a year which has not been the case for a good while now.

Nobody has mentioned Open Comps yet, this is where I think if we're honest a bit of sandbagging really does go on. You turn up and so long as you've not shot there too many times before, you can self elect a class for the money :huh: . This is the real reason I believe scores can look really high across the board on some days giving the impression of an easy shoot. In truth many of those walking off with money have no business being anywhere other than AA or at the very least A .

 

[Emmsy]

it definately goes on in a proper manipulative way in sporting.

the rewards while not huge are probably worth the effort.

 

[jasper]

the point you are all missing is that we are in a new issue so any "progressive" shooters would have moved up.???? as emmsy says it goes on. what gets my back up is the non return of cards, in direct conflict with cpsa rules. the grounds should report any non returns to cpsa for action to be taken. this seldom if ever happens. why would a ground offend its customers by reporting them? not good buisness. . rule change needed. so if you can get away with not handing your scores in , manipulation of you average and therefore class is a doddle. so newbies wake up and smell the coffee . not everyone is as honest as you may think. .if someone has the brass neck to walk into the booking on cabin at WW and pocket 2K why do you not think they would fiddle their averages for profit?????

jasper

 

[radrac]

the point you are all missing is that we are in a new issue so any "progressive" shooters would have moved up.???? as emmsy says it goes on. what gets my back up is the non return of cards, in direct conflict with cpsa rules. the grounds should report any non returns to cpsa for action to be taken. this seldom if ever happens. why would a ground offend its customers by reporting them? not good buisness. . rule change needed. so if you can get away with not handing your scores in , manipulation of you average and therefore class is a doddle. so newbies wake up and smell the coffee . not everyone is as honest as you may think. .if someone has the brass neck to walk into the booking on cabin at WW and pocket 2K why do you not think they would fiddle their averages for profit?????

jasper

Completely agree about not handing in your card Jasper.

The "progressive shooter" must have moved up a class, because it is a new issue, doesn't really mathematically stack up though. Even though I shot a 73 and 74 in the last two weeks my adjusted average is still in the low 60s. If this had happened say at the start of April and I had gone on to shoot a number of scores in the late 70s, my average would still not have got high enough to be pushed up a class. So it is perfectly possible even at this stage in the issue that there are a number of improving shooters who are already shooting significantly above their class average.

On the financial side of things I can see a mathematical profit for the few events with the significantly above average prize pools e.g, Churchills, Beretta, Essex Masters etcetera, but for your average Sunday shoot it just doesn't add up to me. Even with the big prize events the financial maths goes a bit wonky because of the vast increase in entry size and hence substanial rise in competition to get paid. At these big events the probability is that the majority of "improving" shooters in the country are entered and you are going to get beat by a number of those...like "Snipey" at the English Open...well done by the way!!!

 

[Fuzrat]

Very true Jasper just had a wee look at some scores on the cpsa site. Very handy now you can look at everyones scores

1000 targets per issue, solid 75% in B for 4 issues, (mostly at the the same ground) then oops I'm in A. 2 issues 300 targets each (min needed to go down a class) later at a 63ish% average (same ground as was doing the 75%) and whoop back down in C, 87 next shoot (at the same aforementioned ground) happy days If that aint sandbagging I dont know what is

 

[Fuzrat]

Just trying to work out the math on Emmsy's idea of classing on the day from HG score. Just for interest to see how far out the winning scores in class would be opposed to the actual winning scores.

 

[radrac]

Very true Jasper just had a wee look at some scores on the cpsa site. Very handy now you can look at everyones scores

1000 targets per issue, solid 75% in B for 4 issues, (mostly at the the same ground) then oops I'm in A. 2 issues 300 targets each (min needed to go down a class) later at a 63ish% average (same ground as was doing the 75%) and whoop back down in C, 87 next shoot (at the same aforementioned ground) happy days If that aint sandbagging I dont know what is

Excellent research Fuz! Looks BAD!

Mind you it would need an element of patience and long term planning....2 issues is 12 months that seems a lifetime to someone who has been shooting comps for 4 months!!

Not sure I could survive shooting only six hundred competitive targets for 12 months!! :.:

 

[Clynt]

Very true Jasper just had a wee look at some scores on the cpsa site. Very handy now you can look at everyones scores

1000 targets per issue, solid 75% in B for 4 issues, (mostly at the the same ground) then oops I'm in A. 2 issues 300 targets each (min needed to go down a class) later at a 63ish% average (same ground as was doing the 75%) and whoop back down in C, 87 next shoot (at the same aforementioned ground) happy days If that aint sandbagging I dont know what is

good on you Fuz let em have it m8

 

[jonz]

I fail to understand why you all get caught up with the sandbagger thing, its not going to change if it does go on at all,and I'm not sure it does. After all its not as if winning 50 quid is life changing money . There are so many reasons why someone who normally shoots in A drops to B then to C then starts winning again, it may not be sandbagging, there may be a valid reason ( change of gun, ill health, lack of money to practice ) without knowing all the facts all you do is cast doubt on these fellow shooters. We all have goods days now and then and put scores well above the normal average just like we all have days when we can't hit a thing.

How about a review of the complete system and and have moving class process, so if you win B class with 83 next shoot you enter your in A class - It's not like the old days where results were posted and manually entered by the CPSA and only changed every 12 months it should be weekly or monthly at the most,

Any thoughts ?

 

[ExSCA]

Agree with some of that - it should be a much faster cycle... with the drop OUT of a class being slow still (so you couldn't 'drop' a class quickly to enter and win a higher paid comp) - and you are also right that it should be easy to achieve with current computer systems.

 

[Fuzrat]

Totally overhauled the classification system in 3.5 hrs with an Excel sheet to prove it pretty much works fair and square. will start a new topic for thoughts

 

[ExSCA]

Fuz - send it me...