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Think your Sunday is going badly? Look at my barrel..


antse7en

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For me the problem with the conversion of a fixed choke gun to a multi choke is an alteration which without any question reduces the ability of the barrel to resist the pressures created within the barrel of the gun should there be some sort of malfunction, the chokes be not properly fitted or the fit between the choke and the barrel not be exact. You cannot compare a factory fitted multi choke barrel to a fixed choke alteration because the gun manufacturer designed the gun barrels to be multi choked. I know people who have shot their factory fitted gun without the chokes fitted and had no problem. I know someone I mentioned in an earlier post who has a lax approach to his chokes and has had no issues I believe this is due to the fact that those barrels are well engineered to withstand the pressure associated with a badly fitted choke should this situation arise... with an aftermarket fit there is not enough metal left at the interface to provide this assurance in my opinion. Caveat I am not an engineer just applying common logic which may or may not apply🤣

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Reading some of the replies on here  I think it will be in everyones interest to remain silent until a decision has been made and Antseven can update us .

Some of the replies have been ridiculous.

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2 hours ago, Salopian said:

Reading some of the replies on here  I think it will be in everyones interest to remain silent until a decision has been made and Antseven can update us .

Some of the replies have been ridiculous.

In what way ? It is perfectly natural to debate the situation; If the guy does not want people to debate what has happen why did he go to the trouble of posting pictures of his problem on a shotgun shooting site ? If you don't like debate then don't come onto the site and leave those who do to do their thing.

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17 minutes ago, jwpzx9r said:

In what way ? It is perfectly natural to debate the situation 

Agree , we can all have opinions , but at the end of the day the answer will be arrived at technically .

As I’ve posted above Westley, are a precision engineering company . They will have access to inspection equipment and services that most of us wouldn’t even comprehend. 

 What a bunch of locked down pontificaters like us thinks isn’t going to sway anything anymore than the man down the pub could. 🤣

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5 minutes ago, MartynB said:

Agree , we can all have opinions , but at the end of the day the answer will be arrived at technically .

As I’ve posted above Westley, are a precision engineering company . They will have access to inspection equipment and services that most of us wouldn’t even comprehend. 

 What a bunch of locked down pontificaters like us thinks isn’t going to sway anything anymore than the man down the pub could. 🤣

i never thought for a moment that our opinions would sway any decision !!       i am genuinely hoping for a positive outcome  for antse7en   .. 

 

 

 

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Exactly MartynB and shotgun forums are a place for amateur blabber mouths such as myself to give an opinion🤣

and as I say if you post something like that on the site it will get opinions now whether an individual thinks these opinions are ridiculous or not is up to them, personally I could care less about that .

 

edit

In respect of debate, opinion and comments I think this particular site is way ahead of many I have been on, in that it allows health debate to flourish and people to agree to disagree. Now I go on another site, which has nothing to do with shooting, on there is you disagree with a moderator, there are many of them the site has lots of different sections, your warned and then if you do it again any post that you do make is censored by the moderators before it is posted if they don't agree with what you have said they don't post it. I had a post rejected because it would have hurt someones feelings😄

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On 11/5/2020 at 9:56 AM, Freddypip said:

Thinking about this a little further - I would be interested in knowing whether the proof test after conversion is undertaken with the chokes in place. I am not an engineer but I assume if the chokes are in place it would increase the strength of the barrel but the result would not confirm the barrels minus the chokes (or with them loose at all) would pass.

I had a fixed choke Miroku converted around 17 years ago. I left the gun with Nigel for 2 weeks during which I moved house. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure he told me at the time that reproofing wasn't required for a choke conversion and I have no recollection of any new proof stamps on the gun.

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1 hour ago, Westward said:

I had a fixed choke Miroku converted around 17 years ago. I left the gun with Nigel for 2 weeks during which I moved house. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure he told me at the time that reproofing wasn't required for a choke conversion and I have no recollection of any new proof stamps on the gun.

Years ago if you had a gun Teague choked a man with a van used to come to pick your gun up, every gun has chokes marked with a number, that number is unique to that gun and that gun only. Guns are reproofed every time they are originally fitted with Teague chokes, if you have a gun fitted with Briley chokes these are also reproofed too.

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Hi all,

Just to add no further update, as we head into the weekend.

I’ll be sure to update as soon as I know myself 👍 

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1 hour ago, antse7en said:

Hi all,

Just to add no further update, as we head into the weekend.

I’ll be sure to update as soon as I know myself 👍 

Well youre not missing out on any shooting buh

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14 hours ago, Charliedog said:

Well youre not missing out on any shooting buh

This is very true 😂

Update: request for address from Teague today for the purpose of delivering the report. To be expected on Tuesday I’m told.

I think I’ll start looking into the insurance route.. 

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So they already know the outcome but need to deliver you the findings 🤔

Why not tell you and then send the report to you, seems a strange way to do it

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49 minutes ago, ColinD said:

So they already know the outcome but need to deliver you the findings 🤔

Why not tell you and then send the report to you, seems a strange way to do it

Probably because it contains information and results from the independent inspection, which is easier to explain in writing. Why try to explain the reasons over the phone.

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2 hours ago, antse7en said:

This is very true 😂

Update: request for address from Teague today for the purpose of delivering the report. To be expected on Tuesday I’m told.

I think I’ll start looking into the insurance route.. 

Well here is a scenario. You claim your insurance who inspect the gun and ask for a report of their own... unlikely but not impossible. An insurance company will always try blame someone to avoid having to shell out themselves .

It will be interesting to hear what is in that report should you choose to divulge information. It looks, to me , from your initial photograph that the choke was well seated as there is no visible gap that I can see between the choke and the barrel even after the the lead from pellets has been squeezed through between the barrel and the choke tube.

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1 hour ago, tiptop said:

Probably because it contains information and results from the independent inspection, which is easier to explain in writing. Why try to explain the reasons over the phone.

I'm not saying explain over the phone that will come in the letter, what I would have thought they would tell him if it's their fault or his with the findings there and then. He has another few days to find out and I think it will be in Teagues favour not his that's why the letter

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7 minutes ago, ColinD said:

I'm not saying explain over the phone that will come in the letter, what I would have thought they would tell him if it's their fault or his with the findings there and then. He has another few days to find out and I think it will be in Teagues favour not his that's why the letter

That would be my take too. It does seem.very odd that there's been no indication of the outcome.  Bit cloak and dagger. 

If they have accepted it was due to their work why wouldn't  they just re reimburse you for the work and for the damaged barrels. No Letter required.

If it is your fault then why not just say so and say there is a letter in the post explaining why they believe it is.

Interested to see what the outcome is. 

 

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Report received. 

In summary - no conclusive view, bullet points options provided as opinion only. Some with commentary, others without. I'll now be looking into the insurance route. Likely to purchase another MK38 barrel/action set and bring my wood over but don't think I'll have it re-Teagued. Need to think about that one. 

Thanks all for your interest.

Remarks and Conclusion extract, along with a couple of comments (in red) from me:
(note there are images in the report which I'll upload later when not on my phone)

-- Report --

Remarks

There is a predictability of the process leading to damage in the choking area of a multi choked shotgun with wad and shot material being forced between the mouth of the choke tube and the inside of the safety step area (pictures 5 & 6). The resultant obstruction from part of the mouth of the choke tube being forced inwards causes the thin wall of the tube to be torn and rolled forward presenting a significant obstruction which can sometimes lead to barrel damage or even rupture (picture 4).

Please note the damage to the incident choke tube was limited to being rolled forward, with a corresponding bulge to the barrel wall. The process may occur in one shot, after the initial pick up or distortion of the choke edge, or progressing over several shots. 

It is possible that the following scenarios, as listed below, could cause or contribute to the process described above.

1)    The choke tube was not screwed down fully onto its seating. It clearly was - keen to point this out as evidenced in the pictures. Not even 1mm gap.
2)    The choke tube did not seat properly as supplied new. This is highly unlikely as your gun had based choke reproof testing back in 2019 and had been used without incident in the intervening period. Interesting - because this isn't the case in terms of used without incident. It was probably used twice. 
3)    The choke tube was not removed for cleaning and over time debris accumulated between the outside of the choke tube and its counter bore in the barrel leading eventually to distortion of the edge of the choke tube into the barrel bore. It was literally cleaned the night before. I also clean the threading with an Amtech wire brush. 
4)    The choke tube was screwed down onto small debris, leaving a gap. Who's to say? I can't comment conclusively.
 

Conclusion

It is our opinion the damage to the choke tube and barrel resulted from the edge of the mouth of the choke tube being distorted into the barrel bore. We know that damage to a choke and progressively to its barrel, from wad and/or shot material is the result of the choke tube not being fully screwed onto its seat, or by damage to the fine edge of the mouth of the choke, before it is screwed into the barrel.

Unfortunately, as in cases of choke and barrel damage we are not able to give an absolute cause for which the owner of the shotgun naturally wishes to learn, only the most likely reasons and the process that progressively leads to choke and barrel damage. Fair enough - this is a view and not something I can productively challenge. 

It's not the end of the world (it's an MK38) and whilst a pain to resolve it's not something to lose sleep over.

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The original poster should ready himself to be told there was no fault on the part of Teague... they have a reputation to protect and got their report done pronto. Many people have had their guns "Teagued" it therefore follows that there was no problem with the work they carried out... it takes a lot of money to take on a company. Easy to say now but the OP should have had first dibs on that report.

 

Above is a draft I was going to post last week but withheld because it would or could have been the cause of argument from a member the Teague brigade. It was still in my editor this morning waiting.

My take on it and condensing that report above into one sentence? 

THERE ARE MANY POSSIBLE CAUSES FOR FAILURES OF THIS SORT BUT NONE OF THEM ATTRIBUTABLE TO TEAGUE'S WORKMANSHIP; NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU MAY TRY.

My opinion I would not let anybody near my shotgun barrels to butcher them  to fit movable chokes regardless of reputation... which we see here being protected in the way companies do.

edit for spelling

and

Who actually did this report?

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1 hour ago, antse7en said:

2)    The choke tube did not seat properly as supplied new. This is highly unlikely as your gun had based choke reproof testing back in 2019 and had been used without incident in the intervening period. Interesting - because this isn't the case in terms of used without incident. It was probably used twice. 

First of all, sorry to hear Teaugue doesn't seem to be forthcoming in suggesting a mutually acceptable resolution. I agree with Jwpzx9r that attribution (and deflection) of blame sums up the above, with little room for counterargument. 

In my view, a report such as the above should be based on your input as well, which may have avoided the assumption I quoted above. The fact that the hasn't been used (but twice) since having the barrels 'Teagued' gives the argument that the choke didn't seat properly from new a higher degree of likelihood. 

Measurements of the faulty choke following removal, and measurement of the milled/threaded out portions of the barrel should have been easy to compare, have they done so in this report? 

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poor outcome for the gun owner , nothing conclusive  just ifs and buts  ,   poor pr  for teagues  !!     consider the xs pro   😍 

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It's not ideal.

I do not want to be perceived as bad mouthing Teague precision - there's just no value in that. 

What I will add however is my view of some of the additional comments in the report, namely: 

  • A prelude in the doc referencing internal packaging of the gun (it was in an aluminium deep padded case) as if to infer lack of care. To clarify it wasn't individually wrapped at a component level.
  • Call out stating upon unpacking "both sight beads missing". This is because I removed them and generally shoot without.. unsure why that would be relevant other than some form of inference to care
  • Reference to a scratch probably 1/2 the size of a penny piece on the underside of the barrel, approx half way down - again unsure how relevant other than developing a narrative
  • A very suspect image of the removed undamaged choke literally COVERED in black residue - with images displaying the 'removal of undamaged choke" I've no idea how this level of dirt could even be possible given a) it went in the night before and had very few rounds through it, b) was removed at the time of incident to check for any damage. Something doesn't sit right in this respect. No choke has ever been this dirty in the lifetime of my shooting.
  • The selective commentary placed against each remark bullet point is very one sided

This entire narrative builds a fairly comprehensive defence. Again to reiterate this is an objective view, I do not want to be seen to point fingers unjustly. 

As an aside - what are peoples views on Teague alternatives? Open to suggestions moving forward.

Thanks all.

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It would be helpful to see the photographs.

The report’s conclusions would tie in with the initial comments on this thread – that pressure has built up behind the choke causing the barrel failure. Teague are not concerned with why the failure occurred in this case, just showing it was not a fault with their product as supplied. I agree with Colin that you should be told the dimensions of the assembly and know how much metal was milled out etc. I think, as part of their investigation, they should also have tested the barrel metal to confirm it was to spec.

There are a few points that occur to me,

Have they measured the choke and recess to confirm they are an exact match – I assume all of the other chokes you have are the same length. Luke has raised the same point and it should have been covered off in the report.

Do you have a copy of the reproof certificate – I would want to have that. I have found the following - http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF but I’m still struggling to work out if the proofing is done with the chokes in.

Get the barrel and choke posted back to you.

Finally, though this is personal comment, I would not give them repeat business if you have not found a cause solution. Putting aside the issues with whether reducing the metal in a barrel is OK, if you don’t know how to avoid it happening again, it probably will.

P.S. I think we would all accept that multi choke guns have more weight up front suggesting more metal and therefore greater strength without the choke.

P.P.S. It is worth checking the thickness & bore of a non-damaged choke at the breach and barrel end just to check the construction is correct. Again Teague should have done this with the damaged choke.

Ant. Sorry to check this but did you manage to remove the choke from the barrel before posting to Teague ?. If so did you photograph it ?. I had assumed (or read) that it was stuck in.

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