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Les53

ABT (a personal view)

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Les53

Well yesterday I shot ABT for the first time since it was altered, in other words made faster, but with lesser angles and shot in a straight line as opposed to an arc. ABT was always regarded as a sort of stepping stone from DTL to OT/UT, however I no longer feel that the stepping stone is there due mainly to the speed/distance involved in the current regs.

I cannot see that by ABT being changed in the way that it has, that it will entice anyone to move from DTL to fast trap of any sort, let alone OT. OK I'm an old timer now and I have some funny old views based on the past mostly, but I really think that by changing ABT the powers that be have just possibly reduced the amount of future OT shooters and OT will now have to struggle even harder to get attendances up to a realistic level. OT has always been a minority game, but as we are right now I can see ABT going in the same direction to be honest.

A friend on mine on this forum shot on the same squad as me yesterday, he shot in the 60's, but he is a bloke who shot a 100 straight at DTL last week and can hit high 60's at OT and he was not the only such person at the shoot with a similar score. As far as I can see it, ABT is now OT with not enough angles, not enough traps and no equality of targets. Real ABT is now dead and burried.

Well that's it.....rant over.......I shall go to my room now!

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40UP

Hi Les, I was surprised to be told that the changes to the rules were made at the request of Southern Counties to do with overlapping layouts. You can add that to non-plated cartridges and pairs at UT both of which have been abandoned.

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Les53

Hi Les, I was surprised to be told that the changes to the rules were made at the request of Southern Counties to do with overlapping layouts. You can add that to non-plated cartridges and pairs at UT both of which have been abandoned.

 

Yes I heard about that Fred, let's hope they will put ABT back how it was. But surely the layouts didn't overlap until they cranked up the speed/distance? I wonder if the French changed their ABT? I understand that the French were heavily into ABT at one time and they hate doing as they are told regarding anything.

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ips

First off if that is correct and SC Were the instigator then its a poor do considering the fact that they are probably closing anyway.

Theoretically abt changes should have made it easier as angles brought in ok its a faster target now at ot speed but no really severe angles but that high target if set max is a real big target and i think that is the one that most of us have been working on. If you shoot ot the speed should not be to much of an issue. I agree with les though it is much harder than it was and last 12 months scores have confirmed it as have the last few cut off stats. So yes or rather no it will not help fast trap as far as encouraging dtl shooters as they may as well go straight to ot, hang on a minute you don't think that was the cunning plan by any chance ?

Anyway this much i can tell anyone who wants to give it a go or in les's case continue with it, it does get easier the more you shoot it so dig in deep.

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Dog Tyred

Following on from what Les said about a DTL shooter struggling with ABT, an aquaintance of mine recently shot ABT after concentrating on DTL for a while (to a reasonably high standard) and he put in a 10, followed by a 13. Pissed him off so much he went home after the second round although this was in some part due to delays due to malfuctioning layouts.

 

Personally I love the current ABT format as its the only discipline I seem to do OK at and am actually getting better at !! UT is a complete mystery to me?? OT not available locally.

 

DT

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ips

We rest our case, abt scares the proverbial out of a lot of people.

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BoB1

Ive only shot ABT at Fauxdegla, and I love it! I havent shot it at Beverly though, and I understand they wind the traps up to the max for everything. Ive shot their OT, found it challenging! But Im still starting out really.

 

I find abt much more instinctive than dtl (for example), you've no time for bad habits to creep in, you just see it and pull through it. I sometimes try to "make sure" of a dtl target and miss it, but there is no such time at abt!

 

ABT for me is 90-95% closer to OT than DTL.

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Guest

After my scores on Sunday I am keeping very quiet.

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ips

Spot on rob.

You find that trap shooters either have a DTL brain or a ABT / OT brain and very few can shoot both very well. Not only different brain / mind set required but some peoples shooting style suits one or the other better. I realised in 93 after many years of mainly DTL with the occasional ABT that i was more suited to the faster stuff, i know some very good DTL shooters who just cannot deal with fast stuff and conversely some very good trap shooters who can't hit 20 DTL if there life depended on it. You may have found your calling early in your shooting career i certainly get the feeling that you enjoy ABT more, of course if you are really serious about the big time then OT is were it is at but of course much time and travel required for reg stuff.

Look at it this way do you think you can progress to hitting 90 ABT easier than progressing to hit 295 DTL because that is the level to aspire to in order to to be in with a chance at either.

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Jay

Well yesterday I shot ABT for the first time since it was altered, in other words made faster, but with lesser angles and shot in a straight line as opposed to an arc. ABT was always regarded as a sort of stepping stone from DTL to OT/UT, however I no longer feel that the stepping stone is there due mainly to the speed/distance involved in the current regs.

I cannot see that by ABT being changed in the way that it has, that it will entice anyone to move from DTL to fast trap of any sort, let alone OT. OK I'm an old timer now and I have some funny old views based on the past mostly, but I really think that by changing ABT the powers that be have just possibly reduced the amount of future OT shooters and OT will now have to struggle even harder to get attendances up to a realistic level. OT has always been a minority game, but as we are right now I can see ABT going in the same direction to be honest.

A friend on mine on this forum shot on the same squad as me yesterday, he shot in the 60's, but he is a bloke who shot a 100 straight at DTL last week and can hit high 60's at OT and he was not the only such person at the shoot with a similar score. As far as I can see it, ABT is now OT with not enough angles, not enough traps and no equality of targets. Real ABT is now dead and burried.

Well that's it.....rant over.......I shall go to my room now!

 

I've yet to try this new ABT format but unless I'm going to a proper shooting ground like EYGC or SC I tend to expect a lash up anyway. Having shot at various grounds around the UK I've noticed it's one discipline that's inconsistently delivered. I don't know why though because it should be straight forward to set up.  I also suspect that some of the more local grounds that offer it tone it down a bit to keep their regular shooters happy as well, which adds to the mix.

 

On a more positive note if the new format is less angle and more OT speed then I think it would be good training for OT, because if i'm going to miss, it'll usually be a low straight bird!

 

Shot some of the aforementioned flavour of ABT yesterday and unfortunately didn't do well at all. I'll drive the extra hour to SC next time though.

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ips

You are correct with one thing the consistency of targets is none existent and as you say how hard can it be for all grounds to set the targets to what they are supposed to be ?

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Jay

Exactly it only requires one trap set up to the current rules of the game.

 

For me a fast trap target is fun to shoot providing it's there when i call for it, which is why I really enjoy shooting at SC and EYGC. Every now and then we get a bad score at SC but it won't be because of the targets, it'll usually be because of ourselves or really bad weather conditions up there.

 

I'm intrigued with this new ABT though, the ABT I shot yesterday was definitely a version of the old ABT (I think). I'll see if I can get down to SC soon to shoot a few rounds.

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BoB1

Look at it this way do you think you can progress to hitting 90 ABT easier than progressing to hit 295 DTL because that is the level to aspire to in order to to be in with a chance at either.

 

Hmm, I am getting 90-92, 260-268 ish at dtl at the moment (i.e. in the last two weeks). Havent shot 100 abt, but have got 42 & 43/50. So that would be 85ish if I could hold it together over two more rounds. I think, personally, getting 90-95 at abt would be easier than getting 295 at dtl, for sure. But I havent been shooting long enough really, just my opinion at this early stage. Ask me again in a year!

 

Dtl has a certain allure though, because of the big crowds, and because its so competitive. (Question: If there were as many abt shooters as there are dtl shooters, would 90-95 be good enough to win an abt shoot? Or would it be 98-100 to have a chance?)

 

I do want to master dtl first before moving onto fast trap completely though. (Arnold has suggested this as something I have to do in my training! Although, Arnold told me on Saturday that he has never gotten a 100/300 at dtl. He didnt shoot it for very long, but still never got one. Thought it was curious, since he does so well at UT, OT etc)

 

How are Deglas abt targets in your opinion Ian? Would ABT at the likes of Beverly be set much faster?

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Jay

I understand why many on here appear to subscribe to the school of thought that you should master DTL before trying ABT, but I think that way of thinking is limiting many potentially very good ABT/UT/OT shooters. There are quite a few good ABT, UT, and OT shooters who didn't spend that much time on DTL at all.

 

I agree with IPS that one either has a DTL or Faster Trap brain. All of these disciplines are difficult to win in their own way, but it depends on what the individual is best equipped to do (in their mind) really. A lack of DTL experience may actually mean that you develop quicker in OT with the right guidance. 

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ips

Jay is spot on mastering DTL is not neccasary after all the italians and many others dont even have it and go straight to OT and they excel at it so one could argue that DTL messed many of us up ?

Rob

in answer to your question imo regardles of how many shot abt I do not think the scores would increase to dtl requirements namely a max score required in many cases.

degla abt can be good if the weather is ok and if its in the covered layouts, bev abt is very good. If you want the hardest abt shoot nuthampstead........wow they are hard.

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ips

Rob

if you want to shoot a prestigeous dtl comp with big crowd and great targets in fact the best you are likely to get then the kriegof classic at mid wales is the one, a truly great shoot that has over the years taken over from the bywell weekend really.

do it next year then knuckle down to fast trap, you know it makes sense :)

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BoB1

Cool beans, advice taken.

Its something I personally want to do though, get to a good standard at dtl that is. I'll see where I am up to next year.

 

Going to practice abt/ut this Saturday at Degla, then over to Bev for 100 UT on Sunday (going to get my ass kicked!). Will anyone else from here be there?

 

I plan to shoot at Mid-Wales on the 8th, there is like a qualifier on for the Krieghoff classic. I think the prize is free entry to that comp (best 3 out of 5 scores) next year? I have heard its great shoot alright.

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Les53

I have heard that the Italians shoot a sort of dumbed down ot to bring on new blood,but i cannot swear to it though. Fred might know I think? SC does throw very testing targets and that is a fact, however that is not the point of course! There were those who shot abt because it was abt, not because they were practicing for ot! I feel personally that the stepping stone should be put back as it was, otherwise all fast trap may suffer in the long run. What we now have, apart from dtl,may possibly only benefit the gifted,not encourage those who may possibly acquire a skill through practice!

This is only my view,others may not agree of course.

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ips

Not heard that myself les but it would make sense as far as i know Italians have nothing resembling dtl or indeed abt but as you say the oracle will know that's for sure. He is part man part computing machine you know.

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ips

Re southern counties yes they do indeed throw some rather big targets. I shot ot with sidney (amongst others) earlier in the year and many of us were somewhat shell shocked as was the case for the abt sel at nutty but that one was a shoot many of us would rather never speak of as the devil himself must have set the targets for his own amusement :)

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40UP

I know the story of the Italian shooting coach on first seeing DTL. The chauvinistic swine thought it must be for children or ladies.

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ips

Ha,

I am saying nothing further on the matter :)

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PhilR

New ABT rules introduced last year as follows:  

 

Max distance, set with trap at zero degrees and 2m high at 10m in front of the trap house is 75m +/- 1m tolerance.  Old rules 75m +/- 5m tolerance.

Min height 1.5m, max height 3.5m measured 10m in front of trap house.  Old rules was with heights mentioned but with +/- 0.5m tolerance.

Max angle is 32.5 degrees +/- 2.5 degrees tolerance.  Old rules 45 degrees.

 

The reason why the angles were bought back in, from what I've been told, was that grounds utilising a trench layout for ABT had difficulty throwing a 45 degree target at the maximum height as the clays kept hitting the trap house roof, or their supports.

 

I and other committed ABT shooters think the rules have now been dumbed down, fast and wide targets were good fun to shoot, and sorted the men from the boys.  Now the +/- tolerances have been reduced, the targets thrown ought be more consistent everywhere.  However, the way they're thrown by the different trap installations may lead shooters to think they're shooting big targets when in fact they're not.  The speed the target leaving the throwing arm plays a big part in this, as does the light condition and how well individual shooter's eyes react to the stimulus of the moving clay.

 

Properly set ABT targets cannot replicate OT targets speeds, with the exception of the zero degree, 2m target which is measured at 75m for the former and 76m for the latter.  All OT targets, whatever their height have this as their set distance with a tolerance +/- of 1m.  If an ABT target is set correctly at the 2m height, then it is physically impossible for a 3.5m target to reach that distance, unless it is wind assisted.

 

In Italy the lower category shooters can shoot OT with 28gm cartridges.  The higher categories, juniors and ladies have to shoot 24gm.  To cater for the shooters with less ability DTL is gradually starting to make inroads over there. 

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40UP

Hi Phil, thanks for posting. My trigonometry rusted away after A-levels, I know the optimum angle of elevation for distance with shot is 33-35degrees but what angle is a 2m height with a 10m base for an ABT target even though the trap arm may not be at ground level? If it was 10m high it would be 45degree so 2m high would be no more than 10degree of elevation. Would this give optimum distance for a clay target as I think some higher OT targets would go slower. I'll ask my local man with the speed gun tomorrow if a 3m target goes faster or slower than a 2m target to reach 76m distance.

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ips

Didn't do A level but have got a 10m swimming award.

What's trigothingie ?

I am joking :)

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