Can you see the shot?

When I first started shooting, instructors would ask “where do you think you were? To which I would reply “I have no ide-f-a!”
After all, I couldn’t even see the shot. Only occasionally would I pick up on the wad.

As I shot more, I began to get an idea where I was and my instructors would confirm my thoughts with increasing regularity... but still, I could not see the shot expect on rare occasions when maybe the background and light were just right. Honestly though I don’t actually know either way.

I have spoken to other shooters and they too tell me that they often don’t see the shot either.

So, my question is, do you ever see the shot? Does say a tighter choke making the pattern more dense increase the likelihood of being able to see the shot? Or is it always going to be a case of just developing and having a sense of being behind, in-front, over-the-top etc?

Lloyd said:

When I first started shooting, instructors would ask “where do you think you were? To which I would reply “I have no ide-f-a!”
After all, I couldn’t even see the shot. Only occasionally would I pick up on the wad.

As I shot more, I began to get an idea where I was and my instructors would confirm my thoughts with increasing regularity... but still, I could not see the shot expect on rare occasions when maybe the background and light were just right. Honestly though I don’t actually know either way.

I have spoken to other shooters and they too tell me that they often don’t see the shot either.

So, my question is, do you ever see the shot? Does say a tighter choke making the pattern more dense increase the likelihood of being able to see the shot? Or is it always going to be just developing and having a sense of being behind, in-front, over-the-top etc?

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In about 200,000 shots fired, I think I’ve seen the shot about 3 times in exceptional conditions.

Never think the wad is a guide to where you sent the lead. 
 

It is simply a case of learning to see where the barrel is pointing when the shot leaves it, combined with knowing where it should be.

I’ve “always” been able to see the shot (cloud) although certain weather patterns are more conducive to clarity. You need to be able to stand in the correct place behind the shooter so it’s not always possible unless the shooter is cooperative. 

Seeing ones own shot cloud is harder but can be done, Teal are a particular favourite. 

i do well to to find the shooting ground     never mind see the shot  !!   

If you see the shot there's a good chance that you weren't looking at the target and if so close to a 100% chance you missed the target even if you saw the shot.  I've shot holes in the rain when it was reallllly coming down a couple times, visible even with a target break.....  That was fun.

If you just have to see the shot then you just have to get a shot cam and you can watch it endlessly

Only insofar that if the clay breaks, I deduce that my shot met said clay at the point where it breaks. Other than that, I always assume misses are behind the clay, although occasionally you just know you messed up by not gunning at the right height. Wish I could see my own shot cloud, but haven't been able to. 

With regard to the shot cup, surely it's an indication of where the shot is headed for the first ten or twenty feet of its flightpath? After that the shot would fly much straighter than the plastic wad, and it's speed obviously drops much faster through drag, but I would doubt it flying at a very different angle from muzzle.  

Luke_(NL) said:

Only insofar that if the clay breaks, I deduce that my shot met said clay at the point where it breaks. Other than that, I always assume misses are behind the clay, although occasionally you just know you messed up by not gunning at the right height. Wish I could see my own shot cloud, but haven't been able to. 

With regard to the shot cup, surely it's an indication of where the shot is headed for the first ten or twenty feet of its flightpath? After that the shot would fly much straighter than the plastic wad, and it's speed obviously drops much faster through drag, but I would doubt it flying at a very different angle from muzzle.  

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I pattern test at 15 yards. Mostly the wad misses the pattern completely. 

Hamster said:

I’ve “always” been able to see the shot (cloud) although certain weather patterns are more conducive to clarity. You need to be able to stand in the correct place behind the shooter so it’s not always possible unless the shooter is cooperative. 

Seeing ones own shot cloud is harder but can be done, Teal are a particular favourite. 

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Would agree with that Hamster. weather conditions play a big part to seeing the shot cloud or not  

Sorry your confused Will didn't think the post was that difficult to follow  :thumbsu:

diver682 said:

Would agree with that Hamster. weather conditions play a big part to seeing the shot cloud or not  

Sorry your confused Will didn't think the post was that difficult to follow  :thumbsu:

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I don’t say that Hamster or anybody else can’t see the shot, but for me it’s the same as saying they can read the writing on the clay they’re shooting at. 

I feel lucky if I can see they clay, let alone the writing on it, its rings, the wad or shot.

Trip to Ed Lyons on the cards for me, late August/September I hope

I can sometimes see a clear shot cloud if I stand to one side of another shooter, again conditions dictate.

In an unrelated search for slow motion footage of clay targets breaking to explain to a young artist commissioned to paint a stock for me, I came across the below YouTube clip.

In it the shot cloud is clearly visible, particularly in the first two shots. It also reminded me of an earlier post I made rambling on about shot strings. In the post, I’d not taken into account the speed of the clay. Of course, I also didn’t take into account the possibility, or even probably that all pellets would have the roughly same average velocity.  From this footage, it seems there may be quite a significant difference?

Appearances can be deceiving, the eyes and the brain working together to interpret what is seen, rather than a precise reality. Even in this video, the camera speed really isn’t fast enough to allow assurance that what appears to be the clay breaking, before the shot cloud (or the bulk of it) actually arrives.

Towards the end of the video, it looks like the shot cloud is being severely blow by the wind.

I think I'm seeing more of the piston/wad than cloud as the first slow mo if you freeze it I would think he would be behind the clay

But then that's where I seem to be all the time anyway

Wonko the Sane said:

If you see the shot there's a good chance that you weren't looking at the target and if so close to a 100% chance you missed the target even if you saw the shot.  I've shot holes in the rain when it was reallllly coming down a couple times, visible even with a target break.....  That was fun.

If you just have to see the shot then you just have to get a shot cam and you can watch it endlessly

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Who is to say that having to stare the target to death isn’t just an old wives tale ? I for one don’t believe you necessarily miss a target if you take your eyes off it ! There are world class shots who reckon they pick a spot in front of a clay, calculate the lead by taking their eyes off the target and let rip. 

My only defense is that I'm an inferior being and just have to make the best of the miserable existence that is mine.  If I were able to do some things differently I most certainly would.  Even driving a car I find I have to look where I want to go or I will go where I'm looking.   hew:

Just buy a Shotkam, you can watch each miss frame by frame and see the entire pattern dot by dot.

Just press pause a few times on this video, you can see the lead, the cloud, the wad, the pattern, and ultimately the strike followed by the follow through.

View attachment YouCut_20200602_161436766.mp4

@Centrepin 

Do you use your shotkam footage to make corrections next time you’re out? As I understand it, shotkam isn’t quite fast enough a connection for day to day in the field feedback?

That said, my question really was more centred around others experiences of shooting and making corrections on the fly. 
 

For me that’s just having a hunch of where I was and where I want to go the next shot rather than visibly being able to see by how much I missed by and adjusting accordingly. 

There are some targets I’ve been able to find the shot within a few shells. On other targets I have no idea where I am and I could throw a box of shells at them and still be none the wiser. Or worse, hitting the ever first time but not knowing how and then going on a missing spree. That’s really *¥€%ing annoying!
 

I've yet to determine what makes the difference between having a good idea of where I am or being clueless to be honest. I don’t think it’s distance or speed. Those things don’t seem to be a problem. Maybe it’s angle? Maybe background? Perhaps it’s how I am or am not making a good visual connection with the bird?
 

It occurred to me that a more dense pattern could be easier to see and wondering if I should try going 3/4  and 3/4 or even full and full.

with @Will Hewland and @Hamstergiving very different points of view on this and both equally respected commentators on the subject of shooting, I have to say the post hasn’t really changed anything for me so I’m planning to experiment with full & 3/4 next weekend on some target I already know.  Will be interesting to see how it effects things for me on close, medium and long range targets and if it helps me with shot placement awareness. I’ll try hitting and deliberate missing but planned amounts and see what happens

Lloyd said:

@Centrepin 

Do you use your shotkam footage to make corrections next time you’re out? As I understand it, shotkam isn’t quite fast enough a connection for day to day in the field feedback?

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The new Shotkam has it's own wi-fi, no idea how it works but I'm sure you'll research that

If you wanted to you could have someone watch it live on their phone it's that quick, but obviously the Mk 1 eyeball should be watching it live, live.

You could if you wanted playback after each shot or 2 shots, and go frame by frame to diagnose your performance. Ok if theres no one waiting behind you but would be so annoying if theres a queue. 

I tend to watch it back in the comfort of my armchair at home.

On occasion I've downloaded while we take a break especially if I'm then going to switch it to my sons gun. It's very quick and over a coffee and a bacon sandwich you have long enough to download and view. Long enough to go frame by frame over any few shots you seriously had no clue on, for me the high tower at Park Lodge is a good example.

The time consuming part is not the downloading but the cutting of the unnecessary bits and stringing the whole performance warts and all into one complete watchable unit.

I've posted below a video of my shooting yesterday, truly appalling performance I was all over the place and absolutely no excuses. It's not cut so you can see the scraggly bits that need removing, gun pointing at grass, reloading etc. This cutting is what takes your time up, not the Shotkam which is faster than my home broadband.

Centrepin said:

The new Shotkam has it's own wi-fi, no idea how it works but I'm sure you'll research that

If you wanted to you could have someone watch it live on their phone it's that quick, but obviously the Mk 1 eyeball should be watching it live, live.

You could if you wanted playback after each shot or 2 shots, and go frame by frame to diagnose your performance. Ok if theres no one waiting behind you but would be so annoying if theres a queue. 

I tend to watch it back in the comfort of my armchair at home.

On occasion I've downloaded while we take a break especially if I'm then going to switch it to my sons gun. It's very quick and over a coffee and a bacon sandwich you have long enough to download and view. Long enough to go frame by frame over any few shots you seriously had no clue on, for me the high tower at Park Lodge is a good example.

The time consuming part is not the downloading but the cutting of the unnecessary bits and stringing the whole performance warts and all into one complete watchable unit.

I've posted below a video of my shooting yesterday, truly appalling performance I was all over the place and absolutely no excuses. It's not cut so you can see the scraggly bits that need removing, gun pointing at grass, reloading etc. This cutting is what takes your time up, not the Shotkam which is faster than my home broadband.

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Don’t be too hard on yourself. The no hold point, maintained lead, wild stab method is often underrated.  You did mention that you cannot hold the gun up for long so any preparation will be tricky.

The only time I see the shot is when I'm stood behind someone to see where they are actually shooting, but weather conditions do tend to make it easy or difficult, an overcast day is best for me to see the shot.

we were talking yesterday about whether you could see the shot from a Shotkam so I slowed down a round of Skeet from 2017, here's a link if anyone's interested   https://youtu.be/3eBOOAqESPk