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GeordieTrapper

12g v 20g 24g cartridges

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GeordieTrapper

I assume all 24g 7.5 cartridges have the same number of shot, therefore what is the difference at say 30yds with the pattern from 20g or 12g and which gun will have less recoil?

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Lloyd
Posted (edited)

From a physics point of view the number of pellets is irrelevant (save for a small amount of energy lost to friction perhaps)

Newton’s 2nd law of motion F= M.A  Force (recoil) equals mass multiplied by acceleration, 24g acceleration from rest to 1400fps or approximately 225g

Newton’s third law of motion “every action has an equal and opposite reaction” The above force acting upon the gun and person holding it.

So according to this, the lighter gun, assumed to be the 20 gauge will have more “recoil”

However, perceived or “felt” recoil May be entirely different. I personally cannot tell the difference between 21 grams and 28 grams

As for pattern, you’d have to test or need to ask someone who has tested.

That said, a pattern plate can only show you the distribution of shot or where that has reached the target (pattern plate). It does not tell you  when the shot arrived at the plate. 

If we were to assume we shot a clay target with the center of the pattern, not only will shot outside the target boundary of 108mm diameter (we’ll assume full face on for simplicity) then any shot outside that region is wasted as would pellets reaching the target after the first few to break the clay. The following pellets may then break fragments into smaller ones or “dust” the clay.

If we were to shoot the clay with the fringes of the pattern, much of the center of the pattern would already be past the clay.

For this reason, I think an evenly spread pattern on the two dimensional pattern plate is a very poor representation of an accurate shot placement of the three dimensional shot string. A heavily center weighted cartridge for example Fiocchi F Black as some have reported, would give arguably  a more “convincing” break than a more evenly spread cartridge such as Clever Grand Italia are reported to provide, given the same accuracy of shot placement of course.

Catching a clay in the fringes of the pattern is not just an indicator of ones shot placement being slightly off, but it is also an indicator of ones timing  being slightly off

Try as I might though, no mathematics, geometry or physics helps me out on the grounds. This seems to be a sport that is wholly an art form over science. Just one more reason why I love it so much.

EDIT The above turns out to a load of old 80110ks. Ignore it.. silly man!

Edited by Lloyd
The about turns out to a load of old 80110ks
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Robden

All a bit too heavy for me. All I know is, if I miss it's my fault for not putting the lead in the right place.

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MartynB
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, GeordieTrapper said:

I assume all 24g 7.5 cartridges have the same number of shot, therefore what is the difference at say 30yds with the pattern from 20g or 12g and which gun will have less recoil?

It’s not a simple answer . Firstly recoil as perceived by the shooter, is a totally personal  thing . The real issue is why does it matter to you ? 

However let’s look at the practicalities . Using any like for like choke  in my Mk 38 trap gun and my Mk 60 20 gauge ( both Teague converted ). There is no real life difference in killing a pheasant or clay at 30 yards . (Note that a 20 gauge choke has less constriction  than a 12 to throw the same nominal pattern ) .  My conclusion is don’t worry about what it does on paper, worry about what it knocks out of the sky .

In the example of those two guns the MK38 being nearly two pounds heavier would have less measurable recoil  with like for like loads , but neither is unpleasant to shoot with sensible loads .

Would I shoot a serious 100 clay competition with the 20 ? No , because it’s not optimised for shooting targets , where a single lost bird might be an issue . I can’t think of any serious Competition clay shooter who would use a 20 by choice .   Would I walk 5 miles  around a farm  shoot carrying the 38 trap gun ? no way .  Horses for courses .

Having said that I can quite comfortably shoot 100 pay and play targets with the 20 using 28gm 7.5 ( hard plastic butt plate as well ) and quite often do .

 



 

Edited by MartynB

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GeordieTrapper

Interesting replies, but if same shot numbers are coming out at same speed throwing same pattern at say 30yds why would 20g not be a serious gun?

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Cosmicblue

I've pondered adding a 20 bore to the collection for no better reason than I don't have one however the relative cost of cartridges is discouraging.  A 24gr/12g load will likely be less expensive than a physically smaller 24gr/20g cart.

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timps
20 minutes ago, GeordieTrapper said:

Interesting replies, but if same shot numbers are coming out at same speed throwing same pattern at say 30yds why would 20g not be a serious gun?

 The only problem I would foresee with serious competition shooting is less room in the cartridge to play with. 

70 mm cartridge for both gauges 28 grams of shot same amount of powder needed then the wad has to be less. 

With fibre wads or lighter loads probably not an issue but with 28g plastic wads the compression part of the wad to aid recoil is going to be compromised. 

I had a 20g fixed choke silver pigeon and shot it with 28g plastic at clays a number of times. I had no complaints with the kills at all and really enjoyed shooting it.  

But I did notice the increase in recoil however  this was between a gun weighing just over 6lbs and a DT 10 weighing 8.5 lbs so not in the least bit surprising and nothing to do with gauge. 

It wasn’t  so bad that it was off putting but I reckon it was more tiring to shoot due to it. 

On a day mucking about with friends it was great and fun on a 120 bird British open course concentrating hard I wouldn’t have liked it so much. 

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Will Hewland
10 hours ago, Lloyd said:

 

That said, a pattern plate can only show you the distribution of shot or where that has reached the target (pattern plate). It does not tell you  when the shot arrived at the plate. 

If we were to assume we shot a clay target with the center of the pattern, not only will shot outside the target boundary of 108mm diameter (we’ll assume full face on for simplicity) then any shot outside that region is wasted as would pellets reaching the target after the first few to break the clay. The following pellets may then break fragments into smaller ones or “dust” the clay.

If we were to shoot the clay with the fringes of the pattern, much of the center of the pattern would already be past the clay.

For this reason, I think an evenly spread pattern on the two dimensional pattern plate is a very poor representation of an accurate shot placement of the three dimensional shot string. A heavily center weighted cartridge for example Fiocchi F Black as some have reported, would give arguably  a more “convincing” break than a more evenly spread cartridge such as Clever Grand Italia are reported to provide, given the same accuracy of shot placement of course.

Catching a clay in the fringes of the pattern is not just an indicator of ones shot placement being slightly off, but it is also an indicator of ones timing  being slightly off

Try as I might though, no mathematics, geometry or physics helps me out on the grounds. This seems to be a sport that is wholly an art form over science. Just one more reason why I love it so much.

 

Lloyd, while there is such a thing as a shot string, if you work out the speed of it versus the speed of the clay (and I just know you will go and do this..) then you will find that the clay will only move millimetres while the whole string arrives, so effectively a pattern may as well be 2D.
 

I don’t quite agree that shooting is all an art form, but you can definitely suffer paralysis by analysis especially when you have a grasp of the laws of physics and you are new to the sport and are seeking to capitalise upon this knowledge. Many of the best shooters have no idea why anything happens as it does, they have just learned what works. Many others still have no idea why anything happens but have invented a narrative that they place alongside their shooting and some of these have sold videos. Often these videos would have been better as audio books, because the narrative wouldn’t be contradicted by the images. 

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Lloyd

@Will Hewland

Quote

if you work out the speed of it versus the speed of the clay (and I just know you will go and do this..)

You’re right. I just did 😂

Quote

then you will find that the clay will only move millimetres while the whole string arrives,

You’re right, it does! 😲

Quote

so effectively a pattern may as well be 2D.

Agreed. 😊

If anyone is hungry, I have a large humble pie to eat if they want a pice? No? Oh... guess I’ll just have to eat it all by myself then 🤣
 

I don’t quite agree that shooting is all an art form, but

Quote

you can definitely suffer paralysis by analysis especially when you have a grasp of the laws of physics and you are new to the sport and are seeking to capitalise upon this knowledge.

You know me so well Will... And we haven’t even met! 😆
 

Quote

Many of the best shooters have no idea why anything happens as it does

Oh, well I’m in good company then. 🤔

I had a lesson with Nick Hollick at Honesberie yesterday. I chose to have a lesson with Nick because he Is described as a “Technical” shooter. 
I got more feedback from him than I’ve been used to. At the start of the session, he let me shoot as I “normally would do”. I discovered I’d almost forgotten everything I’d previously learned during lockdown.

Nick reigned me back in, reminding me about visual pick up, hold point, break point, hard focus... all things I had knowledge of but had forgotten how to apply.

As it started to come back about half way into the session, I started to get back the breaks and the ‘feeling’.

Nick kept saying to me after the breaks “stop thinking about it.. just trust it!”  I’ve always found that hard. I’m not surprised by the misses. It’s the breaks that throw me off. I cannot figure out how it works and I find it hard to trust what I cannot figure out. (Assumes I figure it out properly... not like shot strings 😬) Then I start to try and work out what happened and I miss, miss, miss...

So I’m trying to convince myself it’s an art form Will.... so 🤫.   

shooting is an art form

shooting is an art form

shooting is an art form

aaannnd relax

😉

 

 

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Jonny English

I took my lad out at the weekend and we shot his 20 and my 12 on the same round. Both guns have teague 3/8ths choke and it was a fibre only shoot. The 12 gauge weighs about 8lb 4oz the 20 gauge about 7lb 4oz. I shot eley Olympic blues in 28 gram in the 12 and the 20 had eley ct20 24gram, both 7.5 shot.

The 12 gauge dt11 with the 28 gram was a bit chippy all day and not hugely convincing at range, and kicked like a mule for some reason.

The 20 gauge 525 with the 24 gram was a smooth as silk and destroyed everything very convincingly out to 60 yards.

Not sure what this proves, other than that there are a lot of various factors even when looking at like for like.

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Cosmicblue
Posted (edited)

Brings back memories from when I started my shooting journey in 2008, I was deeply analytical back then and that wasn't exactly a surprise as a product of a two technically orientated careers. 

 

 

 

Edited by Cosmicblue
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Garwood
1 hour ago, Jonny English said:

I took my lad out at the weekend and we shot his 20 and my 12 on the same round. Both guns have teague 3/8ths choke and it was a fibre only shoot. The 12 gauge weighs about 8lb 4oz the 20 gauge about 7lb 4oz. I shot eley Olympic blues in 28 gram in the 12 and the 20 had eley ct20 24gram, both 7.5 shot.

The 12 gauge dt11 with the 28 gram was a bit chippy all day and not hugely convincing at range, and kicked like a mule for some reason.

The 20 gauge 525 with the 24 gram was a smooth as silk and destroyed everything very convincingly out to 60 yards.

Not sure what this proves, other than that there are a lot of various factors even when looking at like for like.

Those 24gr CT20`s are a superb cartridge !!

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Centrepin

All this analysis means nowt, get some lead in the air.

 

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MartynB
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, GeordieTrapper said:

Interesting replies, but if same shot numbers are coming out at same speed throwing same pattern at say 30yds why would 20g not be a serious gun?

Points 

1) the choice of 24- 28gm cartridges in 12g Sporting Clay flavour outnumbers the choice  of 20g 24- 28gm loads by 50 to 1 . 20 gauge Clay cartridges like for like are more expensive 

   2) generally a 20 gauge ( over/under ) gun will be configured to favour game shooting . it will possibly have a very narrow top rib with no tramline . It very probably will have the barrels bored more traditionally,  i.e no over boring , to suit game cartridges .  The gun will definitely be lighter with a good 20g having the physical action scaled down pro-rata to the reduced barrel diameters .The light weight  ( because of the scaled action and barrels ) may not be conducive with repetitive , steady , shootung .  The stock may be designed with a game shooter in mind having a wood or plastic butt plate , not a recoil pad . Although not a major barrier a lot of 20s are delivered with “ auto safety “ which is generally a big no for competition shooting “ 

3) no one is saying a 20 is not a serious gun , it will still blow a potato sized hole through a person  at 5 yards !  Even though I’ve given up competitive shooting I can’t ever recall In  any competition  I ever entered seeing anyone place with a 20. Simply they are not used because there  are better competition tools on the market and generally they will be made in 12 gauge only .  

Hence my question ‘ why does it matter to you ? ‘ . If you just want a gun to shoot club clays, practice a bit or use on an “ average “ game shoot a 20 is a great tool . If you want to shoot thousands of competition targets it’s the wrong tool for the job .
 

4) The correct answer is buy both and use them as circumstances dictate . 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MartynB
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Lloyd
43 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

All this analysis means nowt, get some lead in the air.

 

Agreed. It’s getting it the right place that’s the problem 😂

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Wonko the Sane

In the early days of the 28gm international rule Perazzi cranked out a competition trap version of the MX20 or maybe it was the MX8-20.  At any rate it was widely ignored being seen I suppose as the answer to question no one asked.  With no discernible advantage it never got any traction.  big surprise - not

 

Skeet and sporting here have 4-gauge events for some reason but the expense of the smaller gauge carts is prohibitive for many shooters.  For a while I toyed with the idea of shooting the 28ga pigeon events and picked up pretty nice little SKB that tho not cool is a well made gun.  I've never shot it.

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GeordieTrapper

I am not sure I agree that 20g o/u guns are generally for game, have auto safety and narrow rib. Browning, Miroku, Beretta and CG all make 20g Sporter with manual safety and some with wider ribs and sporting barrels. My original question was really why 24g 20g is worse than 12g if they both have same spread at 30 yds. I chose 24g as this is the max load allowed in some disciplines. I do not know why 20g cartridges cost more but on a shooting day the cost difference per 100 over 12g is negligible when travel, clays and gun depreciation are taken into account. 

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Lloyd
30 minutes ago, GeordieTrapper said:

I do not know why 20g cartridges cost more 

Impossible to know exactly, but from my experiences buying and selling in the manufacturing sector it comes down to a handful of simple things.

Cost of setting up machines. This costs a similar amount if you produce one or one-hundreds-thousand (there are caveats) So if it costs £1,000 to set up, one costs £1,000 each and one-hundred-thousand units  costs 1 pence each.

To a lesser extent the same applies to bulk purchasing of the materials.

The second significant factor is selling on value over selling on price. You can buy new guns for £600, £6,000 or £60,000. There is a similar amount of material in each. The more expensive gun will cost more in material because the maker will pay proportionally more for their smaller volume of material, but the difference won’t be anything like close to 100 times the amount. The luxury gun of course will have a lot of hand finishing work involved, but accounting for the time/labour The £60,000 price ticket  is a lot more to do with brand than actual Cost of Goods Sold.

If you take grade 4 wood and compare to grade 10 for example, grade four may “cost” £2,000 for the finished stock and fore-end, while a grade ten might be three or four times that. Mechanically the same, same amount of effort to to shape, though the latter is more likely to involve more manual skill and the former more automation.

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westley

I shoot both 12 and 20 bores and use 24 gram 7 1/2's shot size. The 20 is actually a game gun, but with 32" barrels and comes in a shade under 6 3/4lbs.  The 12 bore is 30 " and weighs around 8 1/4 lbs. I can not say that I am conscious of recoil in either gun. I also use 28 gram in the 12 bore, but have yet to try anything heavier in the 20 bore. Although I have some 30 gram 5's in 20 bore I do not see the need to use them, unless I am going on a really high bird shoot. Having said that I was given a couple of the cheapo Fiocchi cartridges a couple of weeks ago and they had a kick like a bloomin donkey in my 12 bore.  As for price,  either Cheddite or Eley 24 gram cartridges are around £13 per 250 dearer than the 12 bore.

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Jonny English
49 minutes ago, GeordieTrapper said:

I am not sure I agree that 20g o/u guns are generally for game, have auto safety and narrow rib. Browning, Miroku, Beretta and CG all make 20g Sporter with manual safety and some with wider ribs and sporting barrels. My original question was really why 24g 20g is worse than 12g if they both have same spread at 30 yds. I chose 24g as this is the max load allowed in some disciplines. I do not know why 20g cartridges cost more but on a shooting day the cost difference per 100 over 12g is negligible when travel, clays and gun depreciation are taken into account. 

My 20 bore is a sporter, 30" tubes, multi choked, adjustable trigger, manual safety, slight palm swell, weighs almost 7.5lb. I would use it to shoot a casual registered, but don't think I'd do a major with it. Patterns wise it is superb and on a parr with a 12 if cartridge and choke are set up right, the problem comes from the handling. The 12 is a lot more stable and repeatable, and easier to control. The 20 can be very quick in the hands and can be a bit wayward if not controlled well. If if want to shoot your best scores possible use a 12, if you want some fun use a 20.

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westley
13 minutes ago, Lloyd said:

Impossible to know exactly, but from my experiences buying and selling in the manufacturing sector it comes down to a handful of simple things.

Cost of setting up machines. This costs a similar amount if you produce one or one-hundreds-thousand (there are caveats) So if it costs £1,000 to set up, one costs £1,000 each and one-hundred-thousand units  costs 1 pence each.

To a lesser extent the same applies to bulk purchasing of the materials.

The second significant factor is selling on value over selling on price. You can buy new guns for £600, £6,000 or £60,000. There is a similar amount of material in each. The more expensive gun will cost more in material because the maker will pay proportionally more for their smaller volume of material, but the difference won’t be anything like close to 100 times the amount. The luxury gun of course will have a lot of hand finishing work involved, but accounting for the time/labour The £60,000 price ticket  is a lot more to do with brand than actual Cost of Goods Sold.

If you take grade 4 wood and compare to grade 10 for example, grade four may “cost” £2,000 for the finished stock and fore-end, while a grade ten might be three or four times that. Mechanically the same, same amount of effort to to shape, though the latter is more likely to involve more manual skill and the former more automation.

You have totally overlooked building in the manufacturers 'GREED' factor  !

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Lloyd

@westley I was trying to be polite with “brand “ and “value”. But yeah..

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schmokinn
On 6/30/2020 at 5:14 PM, Wonko the Sane said:

In the early days of the 28gm international rule Perazzi cranked out a competition trap version of the MX20 or maybe it was the MX8-20.  At any rate it was widely ignored being seen I suppose as the answer to question no one asked.  With no discernible advantage it never got any traction.  big surprise - not

 

Skeet and sporting here have 4-gauge events for some reason but the expense of the smaller gauge carts is prohibitive for many shooters.  For a while I toyed with the idea of shooting the 28ga pigeon events and picked up pretty nice little SKB that tho not cool is a well made gun.  I've never shot it.

got an adjustable trap stock for an MX8-20 if you need one😁

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Centrepin
On 6/30/2020 at 5:10 PM, Lloyd said:

Agreed. It’s getting it the right place that’s the problem 😂

If you shoot often enough and get enough lead in the air, you'll soon see why and where you're going wrong.

Go to a pay and play where you can spend as long as you want on each stand. You can try different things, experiment till it becomes natural. Use it as an unpaid lesson. A skeet stand when quiet is ideal.

If you're stuck on a 50/100 bird shoot and have to move round, then on the easier birds, experiment, try taking them earlier or leave them later. If those before you miss, don't blindly follow, try something different.

If every time out you don't learn anything, you're definitely in the wrong sport.

I know from previous posts you said you travel North sometimes, try the Boar, ideal for practice mid week. Cheap and cheerful and sells ammo. 

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