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jim french

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
231
Location
Stroud
Westfeild sunday the 23rd oct, c class 86.  b class 87.  a class 92.  aa class 96. high gun shared 99 each. Is this good shooting or a poor shoot. I shot 79 in b class but i did miss at least 10 targets in front when they wanted no lead or very little. Steve Lovit the ground owner said the majority enjoyed it if this is the case theres going to be alot of people in double a. Not knocking the efforts of Steve and Alison it seems there dammed if they do and dammed if they dont.

 
Steve is a member of the forum - so hopefully we'll get his view.Personally - I like the way Steve sets up Weston Wood - something for everyone, and cards that encourage a lowly c-class shooter like myself back again and again. My personal take is that Steve has a good product, with good prize money - so he is attracting the best shooters - his averages are going to go up as the better shots attend, and they raise their game accordingly for a decent prize pot. Steve - would love your thoughts on this...

 
'B & C'  class shooters want to hit clays and they are the main people in shoots with the largest entrys so have to be catered for, the problem comes when they go up a class or two and can no longer compete in the bigger shoots as they are in a class above their ability.   The AA/AAA shooters want a challenge with the targets which they dont really get on the easier shoots as its mainly down to concentration. It makes for popular shoots but does not make the lower class shooters improve their game much as they are not shooting tougher targets where they would improve. Thats my thoughts on it./wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-surprised.gif

 
This is a really hard one to crack, yet another thing to throw into the mix is the fact that regulars at a shoot tend to do better than occasional visitors. Kind of a home advantage or comfort zone. Personally though I can put in some very average scores on average targets, so for me easy targets don't always mean high scores. 

 
I shot westfield on sunday,thought it wasn't a bad shoot,though i missed far to many and finished on 82 in A class, like already said the ground owners can't win,make it to easy and the top guns moan,make it to hard and the the not so good shots moan and quite often don't go back,steve lovat is obviously doing something right judging by the entries he's getting. And i note with some grounds they swap them about,one week easy one week hard then it,s just luck of the draw as to which you turn up too! I thought there were some tricky birds there,and the top two guns yesterday are up there amongst the top shots in Britain,so if you want to see them hitting high,eighties,whats the majority of c class shooters gonna be scoreing.

 
Real tough one, I tend to disregard the top few scores in B and C. They are both quite transitional classes (B not quite as bad as C). A new shooter with a bit of talent and a few lessons improves fast, probably too fast for the 6 monthly classisications (thats a whole other topic completely and we have tried to sort that one out too many times to recall on different forums!) Take our esteemed site owner, wont be long before he bangs in a monster in C if he keeps going the way he is/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif I believe a 94-96 for high gun, high 80s-90s AA, 80s A, 70s B and 60s C. obviously you are going to have shooters who do well at certain grounds, the course just suits their eye, as is said in golf and a few are going to have a belter when everything clicks. I think most shooters would prefer to feel they left a few out there than shoot a mediocre score and feel they worked their butt off for not a lot of reward. If you feel you left a few out there you want to go back and get them next time. Fuzrat

 
I didn't make it to Westfield - another long standing commitment got in the way - but I know a number of the competitors.  Although I haven't talked to any of them yet, the scores do seem very unusual in the sense that there are some who seem to have scored much lower than normal and some quite the opposite.Were there lots of skeety type stands? To have a HG of 99 at Westfield is pretty rare so it seems something was different.Maybe Steve will chime in.

 
big jim said:

Westfeild sunday the 23rd oct, c class 86.  b class 87.  a class 92.  aa class 96. high gun shared 99 each. Is this good shooting or a poor shoot. I shot 79 in b class but i did miss at least 10 targets in front when they wanted no lead or very little. Steve Lovit the ground owner said the majority enjoyed it if this is the case theres going to be alot of people in double a. Not knocking the efforts of Steve and Alison it seems there dammed if they do and dammed if they dont.
Jim, you are mistaken about the lot of people in AA etc - this is governed by percentiles not simple average cut-offs so AA will still be the people with averages in the top 20% of shooters.  - but there is a consequence to this current trend (see below).For me grounds that set shoots where C and B class are won on mid 80% scores are setting them too easy but then, against that, ground owners are running a business and these seem to be popular at the moment so you can't blame them for setting softer courses.Personally I think the upshot of this is that it tends to mean 10 or 11 soft stands (which I find unstimulating) and a couple of real snotters where there is an element of luck whether the shooter ever finds at least one of the targets - these are designed to sort the "men from the boys".  Personally I look at a card and see I have missed a number of birds from the first pair/second as opposed to the third/last pair.  The difference being I have missread the target but once found they are all hitable rather than got bored.  Cards with the latter almost always have a stand where you watch the five people in front of you score 2 to 5 ex 8 no matter how good they are!One of the problems of this "dumbing down" is that some shooters who mostly shoot the harder grounds where the shoot is won on say 90 - 94 and classes a couple above the cut offs will have lower averages and therefore be lower in the classes - they then go to a major and hey presto you have what is usually referred to as a sandbagger by all the people used to shooting soft targets and struggling to come to terms with the kind of stuff set by Dyson et al for the majors.  CheersJT
 
So Westfield was considered easy by some shooters as was reflected in the scores.They may get caught out next time if the next shoot has the same difficulty factor."Let's go to Westfield their last shoot was a 'gimme' " only to find that they are missing the 'easy' birds because they they didn't give them enough respect.There's no such thing as an easy target,in my opinion. Vic.

 
140 people shot on Sunday at Westfield and 13 people shot over 90.  Do not take it away from Brett Hand and Chris Childerhouse that their  score of 99 was anything less than unbelievable when they are battling a strong wind, targets that make you move your feet 180 degrees between targets, strong Teals, Battues and crossers a minimum of 35 yards out.  Quite frankly its insulting!  I feel that the top shooters now are capable of turning it on on the day and being leagues apart from everyone else, they all prove it time and time again.Here’s the actual averages for the classes based on entry:  AA – 86%, A – 83%, B – 75%, C – 67%  I’d say that’s fairly spot on and if anyone disputes those averages then email me and I’ll send you the results on a spreadsheet for you to work out – they were emailed out on the mailing list yesterday to everyone.As Allison posted on Facebook Sunday night, we can honestly say that the atmosphere on the shoot all day Sunday was fantastic.  People were happy, smiley and enjoying themselves – this is what we set out every Sunday to achieve.  Times are hard, Mon-Fri for most is a stressful struggle.  We think most people want to come out and be entertained for a few hours in a beautiful setting where they can forget the c*&p for a couple of hours and just enjoy themselves.  If we succeeded in achieving this on Sunday with these targets (and for the record, I think we did for at least 90% of the shooters), then we will carry on. So is it good or bad?  I think that’s for the individuals to decide and I can seriously only judge it by looking at entry levels – people most definitely do vote with their feet eventually.  Last week we had nearly 200 people at Weston Wood, this Sunday we had 140 at Westfield, in the last 3 shoots combined we have paid out over £3000 in prize money.  I will always endeavour to present interesting, varied and challenging targets – I hope people will continue to enjoy them but I hope we are both in touch enough with all our Customers to listen to what they want and react accordingly.  I won’t support rubbish shoots anymore because like most people, my time and money are too hard earned to waste,  I assume most other shooters out there are feeling the same which is why we try SO hard to get the right balance EVERY week.   Steve /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif

 
Thanks Steve for chipping in - good to hear the strategy from the horses mouth (as it were - lovely horse, etc)

 
Westward said:

I didn't make it to Westfield - another long standing commitment got in the way - but I know a number of the competitors.  Although I haven't talked to any of them yet, the scores do seem very unusual in the sense that there are some who seem to have scored much lower than normal and some quite the opposite.Were there lots of skeety type stands? To have a HG of 99 at Westfield is pretty rare so it seems something was different.Maybe Steve will chime in.
No way were there plenty of skeet type targets, there were,slow incomers,teal,loupers,simo low fast driven,quartering away from right and left from below you (off tower) rabbit,long R-L crossers,overhead from behind,quartering away, quick chondell,just about everything really.
 
Steve Lovatt said:140 people shot on Sunday at Westfield and 13 people shot over 90.  Do not take it away from Brett Hand and Chris Childerhouse that their  score of 99 was anything less than unbelievable when they are battling a strong wind, targets that make you move your feet 180 degrees between targets, strong Teals, Battues and crossers a minimum of 35 yards out.  Quite frankly its insulting!  I feel that the top shooters now are capable of turning it on on the day and being leagues apart from everyone else, they all prove it time and time again. ///////////////////// I wasn't there but totally agree with above, the simple reality is that some people can just really shoot. Over the years standards have crept up and as with sport in general you always get a few that can turn it on to the point of making the shoot seem easy.  
 
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Firstly I have only shot 2 reg'd ESP to date but am going to be doing much more sporting.  I haven't been to either of the shoots mentioned but have heard great reports. Having had my eyes opened at Wylye the other week and shooting some of the hardest targets I have ever faced I'm not going to bother with the easier shoots as it's not going to help me improve. I'm sure i'll be visiting soon to enjoy the challenge :)  Jon.

 
Agree with that Jon - I'm shooting as many registered shoots as possible to keep up the standards... I just need to stop letting family events get in the way of the events I like shooting!

 
shootclay admin said:

Thanks Steve for chipping in - good to hear the strategy from the horses mouth (as it were - lovely horse, etc)
Steve, I sence you have taken this the wrong way this blog is ment to give electric conversation and to get peoples points of view. I did say your dammed if you do or dont and for the record i wouldnt want your job for all the tea in china. I want you and alison to succeed gloucestershire needs westfeilds but some times when you ask someone face to face they dont always tell the truth. I just think its a shame that shoots have to pander to those that dont like being tested fully. You did have loads of variation on sunday but most of it you had to shoot straight at it or very little lead. I recently went to Nigel Harts shoot St Dials Monmouth, he had a stand with some 55 yard crossers. I couldn't wait to have a go, and guess what, i didnt hit one but instead of crying into my cartridge bag i went back to the stand and tried and tried until i found them. (fantastic!) If Brett Hand and Chris Childerhouse can hit 99 and standards generally are getting better, then it must be time to put the stands further away. Not only that if you agree times are hard why put the entry up to £37 just to give the prize money to the same ten percent? The joke is and was that C Class got £150 for 86 yet poor old Sean Pontin got £30 for 96 and those fantastic 99's in the wind only got £100 each. Which seems little reward for such good shooting, like i said i wouldn't want your job, but i really do hope that you succeed. This is not a complaint and isnt to be taken as one, but how much more rewarding could your shoot be with minor changes? 
 
Wow, if that was the payout it kind of makes you think. Again I'm not criticising for the sake of it but personally I've always said there is something not right with our sport when relatively poor shooting brings higher reward than those near the every top.  This not directed at this particular shoot at all but week in week out it's what we experience. Wasn't it Sean himself who had a letter published in Pull to the same effect?

 
Thanks Jim, and you're right, but let's not get carried away with one shoot.  My point is and always has been that my courses are 100% different everytime so blogs such as this aren't particularly helpful for me and make me pretty savage. /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-yell.gif  When we have been banging on and on (excuse the punn!) about different layouts every time and people do one shoot and start saying 'this is the way its going to be so I'm not sure it's for me....' quite honestly it makes me wonder why I bother changing everything so much each week!  I could just leave it (as many do) and have an easy life.  Just try thinking about what you are all actually saying.  One swallow doesn't make a summer and one shoot doesn't make 'the norm'. Westfield next time will be 100% different, as always, and I will set the targets so it is varied, interesting, challenging and achievable for all levels taking into consideration the wind direction, speed, temperature, sun and everything else.  I won't be setting it with the hard target brigade in mind or the soft shoot fanatics.  I'll be setting what I think is a good course with something for everyone and people will undoubtedly tell me their opinions, good and bad, at the end.  That's what it's all about.   I too love to go and have a crack at the really long crossers and I know how it feels to keep going back until you've got it but quite honestly, to many sunday shooters, that's not what they want and on a stand where that could cost someone (B,C shooters in particular) 4-5 targets, it's not ideal.As for times are hard why put the price up, the answer is simple, it's been £30 to shoot 100 birds for 3 years, since then the clays are a lot more expensive, VAT is 2.5% dearer, our rent has risen twice and our insurance for the shoots has increased £2k per year.  I don't think I need to even mention fuel.  I'm sure your business prices have increased a little in the last 3 years too.  Are you still charging your customers the same price or have you finally had to pass on the increases too?Our reason for going to £150 1st per class is that we normally stake a £150 HG which is our sponsorship of the shoot.  It generally only appeals to one class, a dozon or so shooters but from our point of view it is to stimulate people to want to attend the shoot.  B and A class could argue that they fill most of our shoots yet they are never going to win the shoot and AA get a HG and a 1st place??  The argument works both ways.  Perhaps it is a mindset that needs to change?  I don't know.  Time will tell.  /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-confused.gifIf a dozen or more in each class are stimulated by this prize fund then everyone wins. It's not ideal when someone like Sean shoots 96 and gets £30 but equally someone on the same day shot 1 or 2 targets less than that and got nothing - it's the same in every class.  It sucks but the line has to be drawn somewhere.  That's the point of classes, you are being totally ridiculous to make the comparison between 1st in C and 3rd in AA.We will run the prize fund for a while and see what happens, it may be modified, it may not.  We did run a prize fund Jan/Feb this year that paid £80 1st, £60 2nd, £50 3rd, £40 4th and a free shoot for 5th but that didn't seem to interest that many people so we stopped. We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't so as the saying goes, 'Love a lot, trust a few but always paddle your own canoe'. I am now off to go paddling some more at Westfield to get the FITASC ready for this weekend. See you there.  Steve

 
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