Unbelievable

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wynno

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Oct 4, 2011
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Today at Meadowcroft I witnessed the most blatant form of cheating that I have ever seen in some 30 years of shooting.

stand 4 consisted of an orange left to right quartering target approximately 15 to 20 m in front ,followed by a fast black target ( duck )over your left shoulder .

This one shooter who is a contributor to this forum and an A class shot, hit the first three pairs in spectacular fashion,  for the final pair he called pull and due to the wind pushing the bird some 2m lower he missed it.  He broke the gun and called no bird and bullied the female referee into giving him the target again which he then proceeded to kill along with the report target, giving him 8 out of 8.

I proceeded to say bird lost second to count, there were numerous other shooters behind including one veteran England sporting and fitasc shooter who also said target lost second to count. The shooter continues to bully the scorer who then gives him the target again.

when he walked off I said in front of everybody that he cheated and bullied the scorer, his reply absolutely f all.

Now you know who you are and if cheating is the way you think you can win, then you are a sad b’stard

 
I've seen people break the gun and (legitimately) ask for the pair again, this doesn't always constitute "bullying" although I have admittedly also witnessed the same action when the request from the shooter for pair again was somewhat less tenable; when the same shooter pulls the stunt once or twice a round it's an obvious sign of habitual cheating. 

You write : "He broke the gun and called no bird and bullied the female referee into giving him the target again which he then proceeded to kill" - in fairness to all it's difficult to judge whether asking for pair again "automatically" constitutes "bullying" even taking into account the fact that some bystanders did think the shooters request was unreasonable, the reason I say this is because without having been there or witnessed it we don't know whether others may have thought it reasonable enough ?! Tough call to make at times. 

A quartering clay a mere 15-20 yards in front which is meant to fly at say 3 meters from the ground is (in my view) a legitimate no bird if it comes out a meter from the ground because relative to the firing point the trajectory and angle is hugely altered. The same target 35-40 yards away presented 15 meters high cannot legitimately be called no bird if it comes out 13 meters high. 

 
Today at Meadowcroft I witnessed the most blatant form of cheating that I have ever seen in some 30 years of shooting.

stand 4 consisted of an orange left to right quartering target approximately 15 to 20 m in front ,followed by a fast black target ( duck )over your left shoulder .

This one shooter who is a contributor to this forum and an A class shot, hit the first three pairs in spectacular fashion,  for the final pair he called pull and due to the wind pushing the bird some 2m lower he missed it.  He broke the gun and called no bird and bullied the female referee into giving him the target again which he then proceeded to kill along with the report target, giving him 8 out of 8.

I proceeded to say bird lost second to count, there were numerous other shooters behind including one veteran England sporting and fitasc shooter who also said target lost second to count. The shooter continues to bully the scorer who then gives him the target again.

when he walked off I said in front of everybody that he cheated and bullied the scorer, his reply absolutely f all.

Now you know who you are and if cheating is the way you think you can win, then you are a sad b’stard
I’ve had a massively off line target a few times lately.. at Owls STR pool yesterday the orange away came out way low. Caused me to miss a pair. Never mind.. I also had a really shabby deal at College Farm last Wednesday. An orange quartering target came out completely pale, different colour, hardly visible. I actually hit it, but was so distracted that I missed the next target. I mentioned it it. Blank look from ref. I didn’t take it further. Missed HG by one clay.. 

It is tricky territory. Devils advocate.. inexperienced refs won’t appreciate an off line target, so it makes the shooter call it.. which can look unreasonable. If you take a massively experienced ref, they are usually very keen to ensure you get a fair deal.

I've seen people break the gun and (legitimately) ask for the pair again, this doesn't always constitute "bullying" although I have admittedly also witnessed the same action when the request from the shooter for pair again was somewhat less tenable; when the same shooter pulls the stunt once or twice a round it's an obvious sign of habitual cheating. 

You write : "He broke the gun and called no bird and bullied the female referee into giving him the target again which he then proceeded to kill" - in fairness to all it's difficult to judge whether asking for pair again "automatically" constitutes "bullying" even taking into account the fact that some bystanders did think the shooters request was unreasonable, the reason I say this is because without having been there or witnessed it we don't know whether others may have thought it reasonable enough ?! Tough call to make at times. 

A quartering clay a mere 15-20 yards in front which is meant to fly at say 3 meters from the ground is (in my view) a legitimate no bird if it comes out a meter from the ground because relative to the firing point the trajectory and angle is hugely altered. The same target 35-40 yards away presented 15 meters high cannot legitimately be called no bird if it comes out 13 meters high. 
Snap Hamid..

 
Having never shot to win, what can you actually win from these things you lot go to? Just wondering how much is to gain at the expense of dignity and respect if this dude was actually acting like a complete toilet?

 
Having never shot to win, what can you actually win from these things you lot go to? Just wondering how much is to gain at the expense of dignity and respect if this dude was actually acting like a complete toilet?
Trouble is, in certain circumstances a bad target can cost you £150. In my last two shoots, a few targets has cost me £100 or so.  And of course the principle of being top dog is nice on a shoot result.  

 
I've seen people break the gun and (legitimately) ask for the pair again, this doesn't always constitute "bullying" although I have admittedly also witnessed the same action when the request from the shooter for pair again was somewhat less tenable; when the same shooter pulls the stunt once or twice a round it's an obvious sign of habitual cheating. 

You write : "He broke the gun and called no bird and bullied the female referee into giving him the target again which he then proceeded to kill" - in fairness to all it's difficult to judge whether asking for pair again "automatically" constitutes "bullying" even taking into account the fact that some bystanders did think the shooters request was unreasonable, the reason I say this is because without having been there or witnessed it we don't know whether others may have thought it reasonable enough ?! Tough call to make at times. 

A quartering clay a mere 15-20 yards in front which is meant to fly at say 3 meters from the ground is (in my view) a legitimate no bird if it comes out a meter from the ground because relative to the firing point the trajectory and angle is hugely altered. The same target 35-40 yards away presented 15 meters high cannot legitimately be called no bird if it comes out 13 meters high. 
Hamid the target he missed was many metres in the air, and when a six and a half foot guy stands over a short female ref and demands that the target be given again  in my book that constitutes bullying...... now I’m a short arsed git but I know what’s fair and not  and ALL THE SHOOTERS behind said exactly the same this man CHEATED.

I have no idea if he won any money in his class or not, and to be sure that’s immaterial , the very fact that he used intimidation is despicable. 

Now a lot of you know me as a FITASC ref and I do give the shooter the benefit of the doubt, but I stand up for the ref in any situation, perhaps more shooters should take a proactive stance in support of the refs, after all without them you’d be reduced to playing tiddlywinks.

Trouble is, in certain circumstances a bad target can cost you £150. In my last two shoots, a few targets has cost me £100 or so.  And of course the principle of being top dog is nice on a shoot result.  
Will, in your heart of hearts would you cheat just to be top dog ?

 
Hamid the target he missed was many metres in the air, and when a six and a half foot guy stands over a short female ref and demands that the target be given again  in my book that constitutes bullying...... now I’m a short arsed git but I know what’s fair and not  and ALL THE SHOOTERS behind said exactly the same this man CHEATED.

I have no idea if he won any money in his class or not, and to be sure that’s immaterial , the very fact that he used intimidation is despicable. 

Now a lot of you know me as a FITASC ref and I do give the shooter the benefit of the doubt, but I stand up for the ref in any situation, perhaps more shooters should take a proactive stance in support of the refs, after all without them you’d be reduced to playing tiddlywinks.

Will, in your heart of hearts would you cheat just to be top dog ?
Wynno, as I say, I err on the side of non-oppressive and it has cost me prize money several times. Yesterday at Owls Lodge, I was in a money position walking onto the last stand. A very well known qualified ref was there. I just mentioned that my grip pad had fallen off the butt pad after a soaking wet shoot recently and it was causing me to think hard about how I mounted. He said he would send the second target more slowly if I liked. I was definite that it must be the same as everybody else and I missed one.. as I say, it’s the LESS well experienced refs that can cause a problem sometimes, if they don’t spot an off line target. In fairness, if you make the shooter shoot it again, it is still a test of their ability. I totally agree that bullying is awful when it’s a clear miss of a decent clay..

 
Having never shot to win, what can you actually win from these things you lot go to? Just wondering how much is to gain at the expense of dignity and respect if this dude was actually acting like a complete toilet?
The only way you could win money is to stop shooting altogether. 

The top 2-3 shooters in the country could make enough out of clay winnings not to have to work but the wages would be similar to driving a taxi and prolly even less dependable, the only decent living to be had is in coaching. 

Eager souls ready to pay their hard earned to buy skills, tasty hourly rates, no money back guarantee and a bit like your Turkish takeaways when it comes to books. 😜 🐑  :whistle:   :mosking:

 
I agree with you Hamid, it cost £40 to enter and IF he came first in class would only profit by £20 or so.

more money is made by coaching than by winning competitions in the uk

 
Firstly as the first bird was shot at it can be assumed that it was accepted as a ligit target in his mind.  I suspect that there wouldn't have been an issue if it had been hit. In the event of the first  bird being shot at  the second should have also been attempted and  an appeal made. Assuming the second target was released  Breaking the gun to me seems that the second Target was not attempted and should have been a loss.  

 
Wynno, as I say, I err on the side of non-oppressive and it has cost me prize money several times. Yesterday at Owls Lodge, I was in a money position walking onto the last stand. A very well known qualified ref was there. I just mentioned that my grip pad had fallen off the butt pad after a soaking wet shoot recently and it was causing me to think hard about how I mounted. He said he would send the second target more slowly if I liked. I was definite that it must be the same as everybody else and I missed one.. as I say, it’s the LESS well experienced refs that can cause a problem sometimes, if they don’t spot an off line target. In fairness, if you make the shooter shoot it again, it is still a test of their ability. I totally agree that bullying is awful when it’s a clear miss of a decent clay..
Will, what you did is the epitome of a true sportsman, and I salute you for your honesty 👏

 
Paul

Spot on.

First target wind effected so not a no bird, and shooter refused  the second legitimately thrown target so pair lost.

Leigh

 
Will, what you did is the epitome of a true sportsman, and I salute you for your honesty 👏
Cheers Wynno. If it ain’t fair it doesn’t count. And I made more money coaching last Saturday than I could win in two shoots, even if I had top form which I usually don’t..  I recall Ricky draper at Horne a while back. He insisted he missed a clay when ref gave it to him and it cost him HG. 👍🏼

 
Just go’s to prove that there are more true sportsmen around than cheats 

It will be interesting when the scores are published on the cpsa website to see exactly how he fared

 
Having never shot to win, what can you actually win from these things you lot go to? Just wondering how much is to gain at the expense of dignity and respect if this dude was actually acting like a complete toilet?
Have in addition to shooting the sporting diciplines reffed at both ESP & FITASC and over the years and have seen and heard / subjected to claims of wanting repeat targets for "no birds" by shooters in every class,  now this chap may not have intended too but I can fully understand how the young girl would have felt intimidated in such a situation, and at normal reg shoot at this ground the class win (A class in this example) may, repeat may cover entry & carts (£60) I very much doubt if a profit is made. 

 
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I think we all should read the rules for English Sporting ?

We have Competitors and Referees .

The Rules are very clear and in this case the Competitor should have shot at the target and then made an appeal if unhappy with the result .

The Referee should have decided if the target was irregular and if so called 'No Bird'  after the Competitor had shot at the target .

The Referee runs the stand not the competitor.

 
I think we all should read the rules for English Sporting ?

We have Competitors and Referees .

The Rules are very clear and in this case the Competitor should have shot at the target and then made an appeal if unhappy with the result .

The Referee should have decided if the target was irregular and if so called 'No Bird'  after the Competitor had shot at the target .

The Referee runs the stand not the competitor.
Nice idea Peter and it works with experienced / trained refs. The old problem of total ref (scorer) quality remains. Most ordinary reg shoots have at least three that are “the best they can get”. It’s a miracle if they all know the first bird established rule, never mind the full rule book. How often does a “misfire” or a safety switch issue get dealt with wrongly? A lot in my experience. Which is cheating of course.. assuming the shooter knows the rules.

I must be clear that I am grateful that refs come out (often for little money) and make shoots possible, but there will always be occasional / amateur / not bothered scorers that you can’t rely upon to oversee things perfectly. So then the shooter has to sometimes act and it’s a fine line between explanation and confrontation. Never a reason to be rude though.

 
I say, it’s the LESS well experienced refs that can cause a problem sometimes, if they don’t spot an off line target. In fairness, if you make the shooter shoot it again, it is still a test of their ability. I totally agree that bullying is awful when it’s a clear miss of a decent clay..
I had two stands where something wen't amiss: one, the ref just gave me the second clay again on a no bird, the other make me take the pair again after hitting the first and a no bird... bit worrying for me, but I did smoke both luckily. Refs can be so different it can be amusing.

Again, on Friday, my mate got a missed bird on the first stand when it was clearly broken (me and 3 other shooters were looking confused at the call, which I said he'd hit despite the ref being adamant), but he just shrugged and we both carried on with a smile. It happens, and neither of us were likely to be high gun so it's just our own memories in the end.... he beat me by 6 but if it would have been one shot in it, I may have had to have called the official score! :)

 
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