Failure to enter your card

Chatted with someone at Southdown a couple of times on the way round on Monday.  When the results came out their name was missing. The shoot could probably be considered on the tougher side and I'd heard that they hadn't shot particularly well.

First shoot at Willinghurst, which was very tough and had low scores all around, saw the same person shooting straight after me.  Again, no appearance on the CPSA results when they came out.

I know that sandbagging to get dropped a class to gain more winnings is claimed to be a thing and clearly that's frowned on.  What's everyone's view on doing the opposite - binning your poor cards to artificially inflate your average?

This is what I have been told, I might be wrong. If you give your CPSA number when you pay for your card they have you by the short hairs, if you fail to hand in your card they take your scores from the scorer's sheets (and send you a letter reminding you to hand in your cards.)

If you don't give your CPSA number the scores don't count - good or bad. I'm not sure about the ethics here, it's probably fair.

As far as I'm aware Martinj is right, registered scores are supposed to get recorded on a master sheet so binned cards can in theory at least still get the shooters score retrieved and recorded. In practice it's probably not quite so straightforward because presumably unless the "office" is informed of a potential abuse they're not likely to go round trying to make sure every single card has been handed in ?! It probably also depends a little on whether certain individuals have friendly "contacts" in the office, not beyond the realms of possibility. 

I must admit to me it's the only real manipulation I can see happening that might be "worthwhile" in terms of monetary (or face saving) returns and I know one or two shots in the Top 20 whose average wasn't quite what it was cracked up to be but fairly sure the CPSA had got on top of it by now. 

ps. one more possibility is that the shooter concerned went birds only practice ? 

Hamster said:

I must admit to me it's the only real manipulation I can see happening that might be "worthwhile" in terms of monetary (or face saving) returns and I know one or two shots in the Top 20 whose average wasn't quite what it was cracked up to be but fairly sure the CPSA had got on top of it by now. 

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Maybe they just didn't give their CPSA number when they signed in.

I don't think that they are sponsored, so I doubt it would get them anything financially.  I think their average has gone up a couple of percent in the new period, so it's probably face saving.  Bit silly really, they'll need to not shoot Registered again this period if they want to avoid any risk that their average might drop a bit.

You can hide your scores if you wish so they will not appear at all on the list of entries.  Can't see the point of binning a card myself.  It is what it is, crappy score, good score, crappy score, crappy score, good score, good score,  blinding score and back again - such is life.

That's it, "birds only practice" no CPSA number involved.

I know for sure that, in the past, the scores on the scorer's sheets have been used when a card was not handed in and a letter was received from the CPSA. It wasn't me but a couple of mates say it happened to them some years ago (before I even thought about joining,) they hand in their cards religiously now.

I think the question that may not have an answer is “are CPSA members permitted to do a shoot as practice / no number recorded”. Personally I don’t see why not, but you should absolutely have score registered if you enter it as a member. You can’t pick and choose what makes your average. Card binning will be entirely possible at some grounds and less possible at others depending on whether the ground has the inclination to chase up the master sheet. One or two grounds don’t even bother with a master sheet!

Bebo said:

Maybe they just didn't give their CPSA number when they signed in.

I don't think that they are sponsored, so I doubt it would get them anything financially.  I think their average has gone up a couple of percent in the new period, so it's probably face saving.  Bit silly really, they'll need to not shoot Registered again this period if they want to avoid any risk that their average might drop a bit.

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Although in terms of the "period" that ended effectively on 30th April.  I know we shoot through May and only get our new or same classifications in June but only scores to end April will have counted towards their classification for the next period.  One friend of mine is currently hiding their scores so they does not appear on the lists.  This person does have a good reason for doing this by the way, it is not an embarrassment thing.

So, if a person enters a registered shoot, does a round "birds only" then after getting a practice round can they then go back and register and do another round?  it all seems a bit odd to me, surely your score should represent a true average of your abilities, if not your only kidding yourself.

          recently at a fifty bird a guy joined our group,didnt want to put his card on our board as in his actual words ...I cant massage the no.s that way, he was/is a good shot, but I noticed on two stands where he missed two birds on each ..oh no I got them..marked down as a full house, I mentioned to one of the other guys..oh ye I noticed it as well on several stands.

       Whats the point? he is only kidding himself,  I see no point in it.

so when I see him next and he says I got xxx will I believe him, not a chance.

Sian said:

Although in terms of the "period" that ended effectively on 30th April.  I know we shoot through May and only get our new or same classifications in June but only scores to end April will have counted towards their classification for the next period.  One friend of mine is currently hiding their scores so they does not appear on the lists.  This person does have a good reason for doing this by the way, it is not an embarrassment thing.

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I think the scores were higher when some poor scores in issue 55 dropped off and their current running average is looking better than usual.  In this case, the rest of their scores are visible, so they haven't changed their preferences to hide all scores. 

It just seems odd to me to want to manipulate your average that way.  As you say, it is what it is.  Most of us have good days and bad days.

Martinj said:

That's it, "birds only practice" no CPSA number involved.

I know for sure that, in the past, the scores on the scorer's sheets have been used when a card was not handed in and a letter was received from the CPSA. It wasn't me but a couple of mates say it happened to them some years ago (before I even thought about joining,) they hand in their cards religiously now.

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First Reg shoot we ever did I put both mine and my husbands cards in.  A few weeks later he got a sh*tty letter from the CPSA about not submitting his score (even though it was the ground that was at fault, because I know I put his card in).  Well aware of what is supposed to happen, not sure it always does though.

I genuinely forgot to hand in my card at owls on one shoot. Got a sh*tty letter from the CPSA asking various inane questions as to why. Explained I just forgot, and asked why the score was not taken from the master sheet ( no response CPSA). As it happened I still had the card in the boot of the car, so sent a picture and said there you go, score for that shoot appeared in my scores.

Looking at the cut offs for issue 56, looks like I have managed to bag it back down to B class.

jason king said:

So, if a person enters a registered shoot, does a round "birds only" then after getting a practice round can they then go back and register and do another round?  it all seems a bit odd to me, surely your score should represent a true average of your abilities, if not your only kidding yourself.

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No they cannot.  They can do competition and then where it is offered re-enter for fun but you cannot effectively do birds only practise and then participate in the competition.

Bebo said:

I think the scores were higher when some poor scores in issue 55 dropped off and their current running average is looking better than usual.  In this case, the rest of their scores are visible, so they haven't changed their preferences to hide all scores. 

It just seems odd to me to want to manipulate your average that way.  As you say, it is what it is.  Most of us have good days and bad days.

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Just deluding themselves.

jason king said:

So, if a person enters a registered shoot, does a round "birds only" then after getting a practice round can they then go back and register and do another round? 

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Birds only means not being eligible for any payout but the score still gets registered, although the theory that someone could shoot a round unregistered then shoot the course again as a registered entrant is technically possible. I've never seen it happen though, even after reffing at several hundred comps, but I do fairly regularly see registered people shooting with an unregistered or practice card. Something I have mixed feelings about.

Westward said:

Birds only means not being eligible for any payout but the score still gets registered, although the theory that someone could shoot a round unregistered then shoot the course again as a registered entrant is technically possible. I've never seen it happen though, even after reffing at several hundred comps, but I do fairly regularly see registered people shooting with an unregistered or practice card. Something I have mixed feelings about.

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I'm with you on the mixed feelings. 

Now I know that it's OK to do it, I might just go and shoot some next winter without giving my number.  There are times when I've shot in atrocious weather conditions when I know my score is going to be poor because I just wanted to get out and shoot.  Would definitely have preferred some of those not to have counted.

Bebo said:

I'm with you on the mixed feelings. 

Now I know that it's OK to do it, I might just go and shoot some next winter without giving my number.  There are times when I've shot in atrocious weather conditions when I know my score is going to be poor because I just wanted to get out and shoot.  Would definitely have preferred some of those not to have counted.

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I dont think it is possible.  I am sure if I rocked up to Southdown for example and said to Helen "I want to shoot the sporting as practice" it would be met with "you mean birds only rather than competition" and my score would still be listed.  I think particularly when you are a competition shooter they would not be expecting you to come to a registered shoot as a member of the cpsa and just do it as practise.  I think it is more likely your person just didn't give in their card.  I have found cards in the bin at shoots and have helpfully handed them in ..

I found this interesting:

   Any member who has chosen to have their records hidden from listing in the shoot program under GDPR is not entitled to enter registered shoots either as a full competitor or as targets only. They can however, shoot on a ‘Have a Go’ basis only. It is important that those competing allow scores to be processed and published on the CPSA website to maintain the integrity of the competition and its results. 

I think it would probably be far fetched to believe that someone would allow their details and then disallow their details as and when it suited them - too exhausting and you would need a crystal ball to know what results you were likely to achieve at individual shoots.

I also find this interesting:

For Competition Members all scores of 25 targets or more obtained at registered events (including ‘“Targets-Only”’ but not tie breakers), will be used for the compilation of national averages and classifications. Scores shot in a tie-break or at Handicap-by-Distance events, will not be counted. 

I take "Competition Members" to mean fully paid up members of the CPSA and not for example Clubman Members.

Sian said:

I found this interesting:

   Any member who has chosen to have their records hidden from listing in the shoot program under GDPR is not entitled to enter registered shoots either as a full competitor or as targets only. They can however, shoot on a ‘Have a Go’ basis only. It is important that those competing allow scores to be processed and published on the CPSA website to maintain the integrity of the competition and its results. 

I think it would probably be far fetched to believe that someone would allow their details and then disallow their details as and when it suited them - too exhausting and you would need a crystal ball to know what results you were likely to achieve at individual shoots.

I also find this interesting:

For Competition Members all scores of 25 targets or more obtained at registered events (including ‘“Targets-Only”’ but not tie breakers), will be used for the compilation of national averages and classifications. Scores shot in a tie-break or at Handicap-by-Distance events, will not be counted. 

I take "Competition Members" to mean fully paid up members of the CPSA and not for example Clubman Members.

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Good post. I like the bit about maintaining the integrity of the competition. They're obviously not happy to have full members shooting it unregistered.

Sian said:

I found this interesting:

   Any member who has chosen to have their records hidden from listing in the shoot program under GDPR is not entitled to enter registered shoots either as a full competitor or as targets only. They can however, shoot on a ‘Have a Go’ basis only. It is important that those competing allow scores to be processed and published on the CPSA website to maintain the integrity of the competition and its results. 

I think it would probably be far fetched to believe that someone would allow their details and then disallow their details as and when it suited them - too exhausting and you would need a crystal ball to know what results you were likely to achieve at individual shoots.

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So theoretically, you could pay for your card, shoot your round, see you'd got a sh*t score, get on your phone and block your scores from being visible before you got back to the Clubhouse and handed your card in, then once the scores had been published you could make your scores visible again?

Bebo said:

So theoretically, you could pay for your card, shoot your round, see you'd got a sh*t score, get on your phone and block your scores from being visible before you got back to the Clubhouse and handed your card in, then once the scores had been published you could make your scores visible again?

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I have no idea but I need a lie down after that.