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El Spavo

Velocity v Superfast

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El Spavo
Posted (edited)

Absolutely, and that's why I wasn't particularly bothered about the rate of knots it could fly at with regards hitting the target as logic dictates when targetting anything, if your shot/bullet moves slowly, you give more lead to compensate and vice versa... so where I have been shooting with TT1s, if the Superfast IS actually much, much quicker through the air, then unless I recallibrate where I'm aiming, I'm gonna miss or hit the front edge only. (wasn't though, could barely tell any difference and didn't have to alter my aim at all! ☺️)

But at distance, surely an actual higher velocity cartridge (or a more densely packed/patterned one during trajectory possibly?) will have a greater chance of breaking that clay at, say, 80+ yards on the basis it should theoretically maintain speed over that longer distance? The slower one will decelerate quicker and make it less powerfully destructive when it reaches that far target? Or am I talking b*llocks?! 😄

Edited by El Spavo

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MartynB

Bear in mind that 1500 FPS is a measurement taken at the muzzle ,  at 20 yards it’s nothing like that at 80 yards it’s going to be positively pedestrian probably around four or five hundred feet per second .  The two things you want from a cartridge are good pattern delivery and smooth shooting IMHO .   The object of using a  12g shotgun hasn’t changed in a hundred and fifty years . That’s getting a target at any given distance inside a  flying cloud  of pellets with enough density that it can’t pass through it . For your theoretical 80 yard target , a tighter choke and a bigger pellet size makes more sense to me than a “faster”  cartridge 

I

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Hamster

There's a sticky on PigeonWatch where some kind chap has done extensive velocity tests for all kinds of shells including clay loads and the difference between the fastest and slowest lead loads is no more than 200 fps - the vast majority of the loads we commonly use fall in the 1300 - 1400 range (Eley Superbs are 1293). I have long maintained that a good shooter who is interested in the subject would be able to tell the difference once we get close to around 200 fps but have also said I'd pay to watch anyone tell the difference between 50-100 fps, in other words, (in normal shells) you can't tell what's what based on "speed" in a blind test.

You can of course tell the difference in break signature as well as recoil characteristics, to me it seems the quality of the shot is the important factor. FWIW I also don't believe oft quoted assumptions that slow shells pattern "better" or that fast shells "blow" patterns. 

When it comes to extreme range such as 80 yards density matters more than speed because by then both fast and slow shells are out of steam and either could affect a chip or break depending on (where upon the target) the strike occurs, i.e, it is as much luck as speed or pattern to be fair since there is not going to be a definable "centre" as such. 

Again FWIW I don't subscribe to bigger is better at range, density is what we need, I'd take a glancing strike from a 7.5 or even 8 on a 75 yard target over a powerful miss with a 6.5, the former at least stands a chance of causing a break. It's all about statistical probabilities. 

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GlawsterOldCodger

Having used (no longer do mind) 1000's of Superfasts they felt a lot easier on the bod than the Velocity I once tried, these I did feel were thump as er White Golds (I know from same stable so to speak) , however each of us feels things differently.

As for speed, would a mere mortal really tell the difference on the bulk of sporting targets thrown these days? Only takes a few pellets to take a clay.

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El Spavo

Yup, lots of variables and both posts make logically valid post, so duly noted. 👍

Just got to get good and pointing it in the right place! 😊

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buze

Using a 7 1/2 pellet lead pellet at 500ft altitude, I get these from the rather handy calculator I found there: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/shot-ballistics/shot-ballistics.html

Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)

0      1350   5.2     0.0     0.0     0.000

10     1036   3.1     0.1     0.0     0.025

15     954    2.6     0.3     0.0     0.040

20     881    2.2     0.6     0.0     0.057

25     819    1.9     1.1     0.0     0.075

30     766    1.7     1.7     0.0     0.093

35     710    1.4     2.5     0.0     0.114

40     658    1.2     3.6     0.0     0.136

45     610    1.1     4.9     0.0     0.159

50     562    0.90    6.6     0.0     0.185

75     360    0.37    23.9    0.0     0.352

100    208    0.12    75.9    0.0     0.627

 

Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)

0      1450   6.0     0.0     0.0     0.000

10     1070   3.3     0.1     0.0     0.024

15     979    2.7     0.3     0.0     0.039

20     905    2.3     0.6     0.0     0.055

25     842    2.0     1.0     0.0     0.072

30     786    1.8     1.6     0.0     0.090

35     730    1.5     2.3     0.0     0.110

40     678    1.3     3.3     0.0     0.131

45     628    1.1     4.6     0.0     0.154

50     580    0.96    6.2     0.0     0.179

75     373    0.40    22.4    0.0     0.341

100    218    0.14    70.4    0.0     0.604

 

There’s only 6ms difference at 50 yards. So if we assume a crosser, thrown at 40kmh or ~25mph, it will have traveled  2.6in or 6.666cm during that time — which is pretty much about half a standard clay.

 

Given that the ‘accepted’ pattern size for a full choke is 40in at 40 yards, we can assume your pattern on a half or 3/4 choke will be well over 50 inches at 50 yards. If your pattern is unlucky enough be JUST on the ‘back’ edge of a clay, the density will be so low that the 6.6cm will hardly make a difference anyway.

 

So I’d say 100fps is completely negligible for even a “far” clay in terms of time — and also completely negligible in terms of energy. 

 

Now, by far the more interesting piece of data from that calculator is the drift due to a crosswind. Even a pretty slow wind of 2mph will have your shots drifting by 2.7 FOOT, or 32.5” — that’s already 1/2 pattern of offset and very very likely to have much more of an impact on you breaking the clay at all.

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El Spavo

SO what we're saying is that it's all b*llocks, and stated cartridge speed is pretty meaningless so don't waste your money? 😂

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jwpzx9r
9 hours ago, GlawsterOldCodger said:

Having used (no longer do mind) 1000's of Superfasts they felt a lot easier on the bod than the Velocity I once tried, these I did feel were thump as er White Golds (I know from same stable so to speak) , however each of us feels things differently.

As for speed, would a mere mortal really tell the difference on the bulk of sporting targets thrown these days? Only takes a few pellets to take a clay.

Now watch what you are saying some people think they can tell what choke is in the gun due to the way the gun acts on firing so a change in velocity is easy to detect :) 

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MartynB
30 minutes ago, El Spavo said:

SO what we're saying is that it's all b*llocks, and stated cartridge speed is pretty meaningless so don't waste your money? 😂

Just keep buying bigger bangers , when you start flinching , go back one , job sorted 👍

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Will Hewland

I shot some of those 26g Velocity fibres at my local 60 bird straw bungler. Worked well enough but high recoil I thought; more than the 28g fibre Velocity I reckon.

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buze
On 6/29/2019 at 7:07 PM, El Spavo said:

SO what we're saying is that it's all b*llocks, and stated cartridge speed is pretty meaningless so don't waste your money? 😂

That's exactly what I was trying to say, with loads of numbers added to make it look I'm clever :-)

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El Spavo

Got to try out some 26g Velocity bullets last night and they were noticably punchier than the Superfast 27g flavour I've been using recently. The guy I swapped them with so we could both try each other's thought the same too. Website says they're quicker (yeah, yeah, we spoke about this earlier!) so I presume there's more charge or summat in them to make up the space, but I was surprised it was so noticable in a lower weight cartridge.

So, opinion... do the 28g have less recoil?

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Will Hewland
39 minutes ago, El Spavo said:

Got to try out some 26g Velocity bullets last night and they were noticably punchier than the Superfast 27g flavour I've been using recently. The guy I swapped them with so we could both try each other's thought the same too. Website says they're quicker (yeah, yeah, we spoke about this earlier!) so I presume there's more charge or summat in them to make up the space, but I was surprised it was so noticable in a lower weight cartridge.

So, opinion... do the 28g have less recoil?

See above..

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El Spavo

Ah, missed that! 😀 yeah, they surprised me a bit, thought they'd be lighter on the shoulder. Could tell the difference from just a few. 

Rhetorically, i Wonder why.

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Will Hewland
16 minutes ago, El Spavo said:

Ah, missed that! 😀 yeah, they surprised me a bit, thought they'd be lighter on the shoulder. Could tell the difference from just a few. 

Rhetorically, i Wonder why.

It’s weird, I agree. Smaller load almost never thumpier. Somebody must have thought speed was needed. I need some more fibre soon and will be getting the V 28g. 

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El Spavo
2 hours ago, Will Hewland said:

It’s weird, I agree. Smaller load almost never thumpier. Somebody must have thought speed was needed. I need some more fibre soon and will be getting the V 28g. 

Yup, looked into it (of course I did!) and the 28g are Velocity+, the 26g are Hyper Velocity... reason being it has more charge inside to increase the speed, hence the punchier feel: action & reaction. I'll try out some 28s next time I come across them or buy a slab possibly, but such as the above, I'm sceptical I'll notice much difference from the Superfast.

On 6/29/2019 at 9:24 AM, GlawsterOldCodger said:

Having used (no longer do mind) 1000's of Superfasts they felt a lot easier on the bod than the Velocity I once tried, these I did feel were thump as er White Golds (I know from same stable so to speak) , however each of us feels things differently.

As for speed, would a mere mortal really tell the difference on the bulk of sporting targets thrown these days? Only takes a few pellets to take a clay.

Was it the 26 or 28g you were using fella? Curious if that was why they felt easier...

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GlawsterOldCodger
15 hours ago, El Spavo said:

Yup, looked into it (of course I did!) and the 28g are Velocity+, the 26g are Hyper Velocity... reason being it has more charge inside to increase the speed, hence the punchier feel: action & reaction. I'll try out some 28s next time I come across them or buy a slab possibly, but such as the above, I'm sceptical I'll notice much difference from the Superfast.

Was it the 26 or 28g you were using fella? Curious if that was why they felt easier...

The only Superfasts Ive ever used were 27g, the Velocity & White Golds 28g for me they were a bit thumpy, it is though subjective and I know of some that say the complete opposite, only solution is to try them.

Oh Im shooting a 8lb8oz gun, am 6ft+ and 13st dripping wet so not exactly big, 

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antse7en

Really interesting for me reading through this post and seeing so many comments around varying recoil perception across cartridges. 

Ever since I got my MK38 properly fitted to me I've not actually been able to notice any difference at all - and I've probably put 15 types of 28g through it since then. I barely perceive any recoil whatsoever, probably likened to somebody flicking me in the shoulder.

Weird. I stand behind others in the stand and they look like they're taking a real beating shot to shot.

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jason king

Antse7en, I have noticed the same thing,watching others take their turn, gun flying up on recoil ,seems some people dont like to cut there stocks to fit ? interestingly I rarely notice kick ,but did when a buddy slipped me some 28 g velocity, yet used them before and wasnt bad....how ever I got a box of the 26g velocity passed to me, no kick what so ever in the miroku,percieved by me I should add, but at that price and with the breaks I was getting certainly will be buying some.,felt wad bargain!!

       

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Adam17

I may have to give the velocity a try, I'm on my second 1000 of the superfasts, cant say I have anything bad to say about them, they make a bang and most of the time break the clay - should I point the gun in the right place...

Im not into comps, so probably wouldn't even notice any difference between them, but it wouldn't hurt to try I guess...

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El Spavo
On 7/20/2019 at 10:52 AM, jason king said:

Antse7en, I have noticed the same thing,watching others take their turn, gun flying up on recoil ,seems some people dont like to cut there stocks to fit ? interestingly I rarely notice kick ,but did when a buddy slipped me some 28 g velocity, yet used them before and wasnt bad....how ever I got a box of the 26g velocity passed to me, no kick what so ever in the miroku,percieved by me I should add, but at that price and with the breaks I was getting certainly will be buying some.,felt wad bargain!!

       

Funny, as I felt the 26g Velocity noticeably kick like a mule compared to the TT1 & Superfast 28g (although I logically understand why it would).

 

3 hours ago, Adam17 said:

I may have to give the velocity a try, I'm on my second 1000 of the superfasts, cant say I have anything bad to say about them, they make a bang and most of the time break the clay - should I point the gun in the right place...

Im not into comps, so probably wouldn't even notice any difference between them, but it wouldn't hurt to try I guess...

Yup, gonna stick with Superfast as they're the cheapest I can reasonably get my hands on, and there's been no difference in the result between whatever I've tried so I'm 100% sold that apart from recoil, and once you've simply got one that's comfortable, cartridge choice is completely and utterly all headgames! :) Velocity are slightly more expensive, but unless I get some the same price, I'm not prepared to waste my money when what I have already works.

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