Jump to content
Geordieboy

Browning DS Chokes....Hmmmmmm

Recommended Posts

Geordieboy

So then, I've been shooting a Browning 725 Pro-Trap.......rather well of late.  But the engineer came out and I measured the choke restrictions of what came with the gun.  Measured vs barrel diameter we find the following

Skeet = 0.738" = TrueCylinder

1/4 Improved Cyl = 0.004" or Light Skeet

Half = 0.008" =  Roughly a light Quarter......

3/4 = 0.014" = A Light 3/8th.........💀

Light Full = 0.028" = almost 3/4 choke

Full is 0.038" which is almost full choke.

I'm a bit bemused at such restrictions.  Only the top chokes appear to be close, and the ones underneath are way out.  Especially the 3/4 choke.  I put that in for long birds.  I'm about ready to throw the bloody lot away at the moment.

Anybody else seen this?  I'm tempted to buy another Light Full as the above is worrying to say the least.  I do change my cartridges to change my pattern, but the 3/4 choke is way out.  

NOT IMPRESSED AT ALL

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bebo

If you are shooting it rather well and the 3/4 is breaking the long birds that you put it in for why are you worried?  Maybe it just means that 3/8 is enough for even the long birds at most shoots...

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doctor Lecter
52 minutes ago, Geordieboy said:

So then, I've been shooting a Browning 725 Pro-Trap.......rather well of late.  But the engineer came out and I measured the choke restrictions of what came with the gun.  Measured vs barrel diameter we find the following

Skeet = 0.738" = TrueCylinder

1/4 Improved Cyl = 0.004" or Light Skeet

Half = 0.008" =  Roughly a light Quarter......

3/4 = 0.014" = A Light 3/8th.........💀

Light Full = 0.028" = almost 3/4 choke

Full is 0.038" which is almost full choke.

I'm a bit bemused at such restrictions.  Only the top chokes appear to be close, and the ones underneath are way out.  Especially the 3/4 choke.  I put that in for long birds.  I'm about ready to throw the bloody lot away at the moment.

Anybody else seen this?  I'm tempted to buy another Light Full as the above is worrying to say the least.  I do change my cartridges to change my pattern, but the 3/4 choke is way out.  

NOT IMPRESSED AT ALL

 

yes my mate remarked on this a while ago ?   browning say the ds chokes  are calibrated to the guns barrels  ,  and throw superb patterns  ?        you did say you were shooting it rather well ,  so stick with em .   !!!     unless  it plays with your head .  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bebo said:

If you are shooting it rather well and the 3/4 is breaking the long birds that you put it in for why are you worried?  Maybe it just means that 3/8 is enough for even the long birds at most shoots...

You have a point.  But now I know that its less than half choke.........my heads not in it.  I'm going to pattern it at Sporting Targets in a weeks time with the Half, 3/4, LFull and Full chokes with the same shell at 35m.

If I get a dense pattern with them, I'll be fine.  If its wide open, then I'll be buying a Light Full for most of my sporting work.  Certainly the shells (Eley Superbs) are responsible for the quality of the breaks I have experienced lately.

Edited by Geordieboy
added more info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
schmokinn

Is this measured with a dial/digital bore gauge or the presumed difference between where you measured in the choke and the nominal bore of the gun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bebo
20 minutes ago, Geordieboy said:

You have a point.  But now I know that its less than half choke.........my heads not in it.  I'm going to pattern it at Sporting Targets in a weeks time with the Half, 3/4, LFull and Full chokes with the same shell at 35m.

If I get a dense pattern with them, I'll be fine.  If its wide open, then I'll be buying a Light Full for most of my sporting work.  Certainly the shells (Eley Superbs) are responsible for the quality of the breaks I have experienced lately.

If it's going to play with your head then best to do something to reassure yourself about it. 

I purposely went for a fixed choke 3/8, 3/8 gun so that I never even have to think about them at all.  It had no problem breaking the whopping 60m crosser at the Premier League shoot at EJC consistently, so I know any misses at distance are me rather than the gun.  Anything really close I just bung a piston wad 9 in.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
13 minutes ago, schmokinn said:

Is this measured with a dial/digital bore gauge or the presumed difference between where you measured in the choke and the nominal bore of the gun?

Measured using a digital micro meter at the choke end. Then subtracting the difference from barrel diameter. 

15 minutes ago, Bebo said:

If it's going to play with your head then best to do something to reassure yourself about it. 

I purposely went for a fixed choke 3/8, 3/8 gun so that I never even have to think about them at all.  It had no problem breaking the whopping 60m crosser at the Premier League shoot at EJC consistently, so I know any misses at distance are me rather than the gun.  Anything really close I just bung a piston wad 9 in.

A friend of mine shoots a DT11. The breaks he gets waaaaay out with half choke and 8s are staggering.  It's all about how the gun patterns. I'll happily shoot the 3/4 (3/8th) choke at almost everything, if it patterns well on the board. The half choke suggested that the Eley Superbs 7.5s were more than up to the task of big targets. But an edge on midi at 60+yds leaves me wanting more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
schmokinn
22 minutes ago, Geordieboy said:

Measured using a digital micro meter at the choke end. Then subtracting the difference from barrel diameter. 

 

I would suggest trying with a proper bore gauge,not doubting your engineering expertise but sometimes constrictions are not always where you expect and i have been surprised in the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
40 minutes ago, schmokinn said:

Is this measured with a dial/digital bore gauge or the presumed difference between where you measured in the choke and the nominal bore of the gun?

Measured choke bore diameter with a Digital micrometer.  Not exact I know however thats all I had to hand.  I'll see if I can grab a bore guage from work.  Difference is between diameter of bore (Given at 18.7mm /0.736") vs the measured diameter of the choke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MartynB

You are getting far to technical . If the gun throws the requisite pattern in terms of “ Percentage In the circle at the distance “ .  Then  constrictions  are irrelevant . Same story if it is killing what you want to kill . 

I have  a set of Teague “thin walls”  in my Miroku . They are matched to the actual bore of the gun , 7?chokes in increments  of 005” from 0.010 all the way up to .040 . 

I haven’t patterned them I just worked backwards and then went up one when the long  kills got chippy . For what it’s worth that means I could use .015”for most of my shooting . 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Hewland

I had a Beretta with some chokes clearly marked wrongly. I discovered it by how loose the cleaning jag felt. Then measured it properly. Trust nothing..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gavin

All browning ds chokes are the same, no were near as tight as they should be. Theres lots of threads on shotgunworld about it.   Seen it with a 725, A group of us shooting a quartering bird in to a dusty bank  40-50 yards away   the pattern for the browning  was huge compared to the rest  I mean  6ft pattern at that distance.  Was ment to be a half choke.  He swapped them for Briley chokes  proper constrictions.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Westward
18 minutes ago, Will Hewland said:

I had a Beretta with some chokes clearly marked wrongly. I discovered it by how loose the cleaning jag felt. Then measured it properly. Trust nothing..

Same here, but it's also true that people have been remarking about the weirdness of DS choke definitions ever since the 725 came out and the OPs measurements are so far from what you'd expect that it can't be accidental.

Miroku/Browning must have some plan behind it as I can't see them patterning every gun with it's own set of chokes. I would though assume the aftermarket choke makers use conventional constrictions rather than copying the original schema of the supplied chokes.

If it were me I'd have to dump the Browning chokes and use Teagues. Life's too short to waste any of it trying fathom the unfathomable. 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
westley
Posted (edited)

THAT is why I stay away from measuring anything, other than the fit and would not go near a pattern plate to save my life. I have been using I/C in both,  on my 725 and coupled with 24 gram Cheddites, the breaks at out to 35 yards have all been very convincing. IF,  I went anywhere and encountered a rangey target, I carry a box of World Cups to cover just such an event. Now it it is in your head, each time you miss (and I hope it is not too often), you will be blaming the chokes.  I have some relations going out to the States and I hope they will be bringing me 2 Briley DS extended chokes in I/C. Briley's  fitted in my Miroku, Inv plus, served me very well over the last 15 years or so. Try to avoid getting too hung up on the ballistics, if you can.

Edited by westley
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doctor Lecter

once the seed of doubt has been sown          we are doomed !!   :sarcastichand:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AW13
38 minutes ago, westley said:

THAT is why I stay away from measuring anything, other than the fit and would not go near a pattern plate to save my life. I have been using I/C in both,  on my 725 and coupled with 24 gram Cheddites, the breaks at out to 35 yards have all been very convincing. IF,  I went anywhere and encountered a rangey target, I carry a box of World Cups to cover just such an event. Now it it is in your head, each time you miss (and I hope it is not too often), you will be blaming the chokes.  I have some relations going out to the States and I hope they will be bringing me 2 Briley DS extended chokes in I/C. Briley's  fitted in my Miroku, Inv plus, served me very well over the last 15 years or so. Try to avoid getting too hung up on the ballistics, if you can.

If it is of interest I am thinking of selling my DS Teague extended chokes.  I have 2 x 1/4 and 1 x Skeet. They were in my 725 which I have now sold and have not had much use.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FreeShot

Geordieboy see this:

Invector DS Choke Pattern Pictures

...to add some sice my last post in the above thread - 3/4 (0.15)  is my "go-to" choke - either combined as a 2nd barrel choke on compak layouts, or 1 st barrel on Fitasc combined with LF (.026) and for Trap with eithe LF or F (0.038) for certain cartridges (Clever RVS Fly High 28g) of lately...

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
11 hours ago, FreeShot said:

Geordieboy see this:

Invector DS Choke Pattern Pictures

...to add some sice my last post in the above thread - 3/4 (0.15)  is my "go-to" choke - either combined as a 2nd barrel choke on compak layouts, or 1 st barrel on Fitasc combined with LF (.026) and for Trap with eithe LF or F (0.038) for certain cartridges (Clever RVS Fly High 28g) of lately...

I remember that thread now.  Great patterns those by the way.  The Sovereign is a naturally tight patterning shell.  A notably top shot I know who patterned them said that you shouldn't go past half with a Sovereign (in his krieghoff).  I have shot them in my perazzi and the breaks have been nothing short of spectacular.  In fact as much to say the Sovereign is right up there with my favourite shells.  I'd just shoot them exclusively......if they weren't so expensive.

I'm hoping that I see the same breaks from the Superbs I have been using.  Certainly the breaks I have had from the 725 have been confidence inspiring.  I just want another choke so I have the same in both barrels, and whether that is half-3/4-Light Full, is yet to be determined.  I guess the pattern plate will highlight that for me next Tuesday!  As MartynB stated previously, its all about what it does at the business end.  I just need to see it with my own eyes so I know what is going to happen way out there.

The halfs have given me more than satisfactory breaks out to 40yds.  But looking at the patterns, the 3/4 looks to be about the best.  I'd be happy with that and pop in a Cylinder for those 10yd wabbits, and a tight shell for long stuff.

Lets see what the pattern plate says.  I will update with pics post plate bashing!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FreeShot
52 minutes ago, Geordieboy said:

Lets see what the pattern plate says.  I will update with pics post plate bashing!

looking forward to it.

Oh and if you decide to drop 3/4 I'd be more than happy to take it 😊

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
Posted (edited)

So then, Patterned Browning Half, 3/4 and Light Full chokes using Eley Superbs 7.5s at Sporting targets over easter at Sporting targets.  Shot them at 35m.  I haven't included the Half choke as it was so sparse I treated it with disdain.  The 3/4 choke came in at 80% dense and shooting 150 Practice blew most targets up.  The light full came in at 83" and was lovely and dense.  70yd crossers were dispatched with aplomb.  Great choke that.  I have also added the 3/4 choke and an Eley Titanium 7's and this shows up to be about 8" tighter on the diameter as you can see.  Certainly, what they did on the long stuff or the edgy trap birds was enough to give me the confidence I need to use them on bigger targets at Sporting Shoots.  Overall, an enlightening and positive experience.  The halfs will be good out to 30m (in my mind), but although it was an even pattern, it was VERY sparse.  I will probably buy myself another Light Full I believe and shoot 2 of those.  Great patterns overall and I have greater respect for the Eley Cartridges than I did before.  Super(b) patterns as I am sure you will concur.

What is immediately apparent, is that the measured designation is nothing like how the choke patterns.  

IMG-20190421-WA0001.jpeg

IMG-20190421-WA0003.jpeg

IMG-20190421-WA0005.jpeg

Edited by Geordieboy
added more info
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jason king

going by that it certainly fits you well, see what you mean about the light full, great pattern ,slghtly centre dense so good for a longer stuff, would be interesting to see how tight it is at 18yds though , certainly cant knock the eley superbs on performance can you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
2 minutes ago, jason king said:

going by that it certainly fits you well, see what you mean about the light full, great pattern ,slghtly centre dense so good for a longer stuff, would be interesting to see how tight it is at 18yds though , certainly cant knock the eley superbs on performance can you.

For 18yds, I'll pop in a SKEET choke.  Thats as simple as I can get.  But yes, I was more than happy with the breaks and patterns for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jason king

makes sence,certainly inspires confidence getting a good pattern with your favorite,comfortable to shoot cartridge, enjoy!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy

This is Half choke. 63% of pattern at 35m. That's a true Half choke pattern and once again, nice and even.

All the same I've just bought another 3/4 choke as that's 80% at 35m. I'm all set! I think a pattern plate is a real boon as it tells you where you're shooting, and how the cartridges pattern with your choice of gun and choke. Well worth the time in my opinion, rather than just seeing the sorts of breaks you get on the Clay's themselves. 

So there you have it......I'm all engineered out now. 😎

20190425_200552.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r

Honestly? All of that crap only actually matters IF you put the load onto the target! You started by saying you are shooting rather well at the moment then go on to investigate patterns and chokes? Last thing on my mind would be what the restriction of my chokes were if I was shooting well... or bad! In summary the pattern thrown by the gun is a minor part of breaking the target ... where you point the gun is the important part. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×