24g instead of 28g to learn?

Okay, so it seems fairly commonplace that the school of thought of 24v28g is that although there's give or take 17% less shot in a 24g cartridge, the patterning is not too dissimilar, and that as such a chippy kill with a 28 might be a complete miss with a 24, but please feel free to disagree and discuss.

So, as such, is there a reasonable rational or premise to put forward that if you're learning to shoot as a newbie, if you can disassociate yourself from how many you hit to your own personal morale, might it be worth shooting 24s so that you're NOT getting those chippy kills but rather you're having to get better quality hits to land and therefore honing your ability to shoot more accurately from the off? If you then change to 28s having gotten your eye with 24s, you might get a higher kill rate because you've effectively forced yourself to shoot more accurately? Hopefully, you follow the logic.

Reasonable or utter b0llocks,  but ultimately let's try and be constructive as I'm just floating this as a thought process?

(having said that, I suppose the same analogy could be made for shooting a full choke over a half as it would be denser, but it's just easier, cheaper and more convenient to play around with cartridges. )

I can see your thinking, but in the real world it doesn't tend to pan out like that, maybe it does at extreme range but at normal ranges you can go to 21 gram and not notice hardly any difference. The mental side is a whole different story though, not many people would risk a low gram cartridge in a competition purely because of maybe that odd clay or two they may gain.

Sorry to say your rationale does fall into the utter bollocks catagory . If I was constantly getting chippy kills from 28gm cartridges , dropping to a 24 gm cartridge I would still get “ chippy” kills . It would not let me “ zone in on the target”  The reason I would be getting chippy kills with either would be the clay not being  In the useful “ killing” area of the pattern . If I can’t place that pattern over the clay , that’s down to me . 

Equallly if I’m a crap shot ,  changing to a tighter choke won’t make me more accurate , neither  that or the cartridge do anything to help my target acquisition , gun mount , timing or technique.

So for a theoretical novice shooter , on the learning curve , shooting  “ club “ type targets  or practice stands   1/4 in both barrels ,  something like a First Select 28gm 8 . Then the big step that many do not take is ......... learn to shoot properly .  

MartynB said:

So for a theoretical novice shooter , on the learning curve , shooting  “ club “ type targets  or practice stands   1/4 in both barrels ,  something like a First Select 28gm 8 . Then the big step that many do not take is ......... learn to shoot properly .  

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after 20 years of shooting clays i still haven't mastered that last bit so its cylinder choke and lot of chips for me.

Yeah, well, just a thought after extrapolating what a lot of people on here have said about 24g cartridges. No harm in asking those more experienced. others seemed to be suggesting you had to be more accurate, getting the pattern over the clay better as you say Martyn, which is what made me think that logically that would dictate you have to improve your aim and therefore get better as a shooter.

Guess cold logic and reality don't always play togethet nicely.

Your question appears to be really about the psychology of competitive shooting, rather than cartridge performance.

it is difficult to argue against the fact that a good 28g shell will break a very small percentage more clays than the 24g equivalent BUT  how that will impact your overall shooting development is hard to quantify.

you can obviously develop good technique with any cartridge, the question you seem to be asking is whether the minuscule ‘extra’ reward you get from a 28g shell will make a difference to that process. A psychologist would probably say that that depends on you and you alone.

personally I shoot 21g for nearly all my clay shooting and there are very few clays that won’t break if I put the pattern in the right place. The main driver for me is recoil reduction. But I shoot for fun rather than competitively these days.

as somebody pointed out in ano thread recently (Wylie maybe) the pervading mindset in clay shooting still seems to revolve around max load,  fast, heavy recoiling cartridges - regardless of the associated downsides viz, cost and recoil to name just two.

if the powers  that be (CPSA  etc) restricted registered sporting shoots to 24 or even 21g shells it wouldn’t reduce the enjoyment of those participating, would it ?

My way of thinking about 24g a or 28g is simple.. tighten your chokes a half step and shoot more accurately. Now my gun is fixed choke BUT top shooters can use the same gun and faultlessly break targets ... it is not the cartridge but the shooter don't blame chippy breaks on the cartridge you are using. I would prefer if the world shooting bodies could get together and standardise the loads and shot sizes allowed in shooting far all disciplines to 24g. It makes sense from the point of view of cost because of reduced mass of lead  and also the repeated stress put upon the shooter due to recoil.  Shooting is, or can be, a head game and if you allow yourself to be sucked in to cartridge performance you are on a slippery slope in my opinion because quite literally any cartridge loading  can be used to break targets provided the shooter does his bit of the job... you cannot break targets unless the shot is placed properly.

My way of thinking on the 24grm v 28grm is that if 24grm can turn OT targets and Double Trap targets to a ball of smoke then you don’t need 28grms to shoot sporting targets that generally are closer, slower and not so edge on. 

I think El Spavo isn’t far wrong. Pattern a 24 or 21g and you usually find the pattern is just a bit smaller, but usually even. I refer to a 24g pattern as being the best bit of a 28g without the uneven outer pellet part. (I’m generalising, you need to pattern every cartridge in your gun before you KNOW what it will do). 

But ballistics are a small part of most shots, with 95% of the factor being the shooter. Personally if I change choke or cartridge it distracts me and I don’t shoot well, so find something you feel confident with and just shoot. So that’s why I wouldn’t advise practicing with a different shell. 

Yes of course 28g may find you the odd stray pellet chip that a 24g may not.

I like 24g  they pattern well  and  are soft to shoot       less lead  but no financial reward  ?  

Shoot with a cartridge you feel most comfortable with, be that 21, 24 or 28g, however if you are shooting comp Id thought that any “practice” for comp would be better off with the same cartridge you have / had  practiced with? 

Just as well I don't shoot comp! Don't get me wrong, I totally get it's completely down to the shooter, just putting forward a hypothesis based on what others more knowledgeable or at least longer at this game than me have said. Shot 100 24g this morning and can't say I noticed any difference, but perhaps I might have gotten an odd clipped bird with a 28g, who knows.

I am relatively new to clay pigeon shooting and if I have learnt 3 things that are important to me they are:

1. don't let cartridge choices mess with your head

2. don't let choke choices mess with you head

3. get a gun that fits you and focus only on the clay you are about to shoot.

Doing the above is bringing me consistancy and improving scores.

Obviously there are other factors that will help such as consistant mount, proper lessons, reading the target presentation correctly...for you, and other factors but the fact remains in my head that a clear mind without introducing wavering pointless thoughts is the most beneficial approach; for me.

El Spavo said:

you might get a higher kill rate because you've effectively forced yourself to shoot more accurately?

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I'm on the edge of my chair waiting to know how to do that ! !

And a Big ++1 to MartynB

I have Instructed at countless 'Corporate Events'  which included 98% of first time shooters. These people have rarely, if ever,  seen a gun  before, let alone handled one. They do NOT have a clue about chokes or cartridges BUT,  they are nearly all aware of the horror stories about RECOIL.  As such,  coupled with the fact that they would, mainly,  only be firing single shots, I would use 21 gram cartridges (the cheapest that I could get !).  They would start with a simple approaching 'bin lid' that hung in the air in front of them. Dependent upon how they then progressed, we would move on to a simple 'going away' target.  Some of the ranges that these absolute beginners were taking those targets at,  with 1/4 choke and 21 grams, was,  to say the least, enlightening  !  They were not just 'chipping' bits off either. 

Wonko the Sane said:

I'm on the edge of my chair waiting to know how to do that ! !

And a Big ++1 to MartynB

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not as daft as it sounds, I have known people who would practise with the tightest chokes they had, say full and extra full, then revert to 1/4 and 1/2 for competitions. I don't know how well it works but it's a theory that has been around for decades.

The ONLY logical reason you'd use 24g in practice is reduced recoil. 

There are less pellets in the pattern, this is true in the centre, the outer centre and the out out perimeters. We know this because there is pattern testing data available that show this to be the case, the old wives tale that 24g has a hotter core than 28g is simply not true and even if it were, what use is that, how dead or how smoked do you need it, why not just go up a choke denomination if you want to reduce margin of error ? If you smoke clays with 24g it's because you centred the target, the same will happen with 28g, the only difference is that occasionally the outer edges of the pattern on a 28g load come to your "non centred" rescue. 

Which is kind of my point Hamster. If you're nailng it bang on with a 24 without the occasional extra bonus clay because of the outer edge extra pellets then I was alluding to you not being able to count those extras, and if MartinJ is on the money too, then that principal is the same thought process. Not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just asking a question based on the logic given from what others have said. And I'm not saying it's a definite way to go, just putting it out there for discussion (before anyone starts getting all titty that it's a daft idea), and it seems that it or the equivalent choke thing has been around for a while by the sound of it.

Don't know how you'd explain it exactly, but a lot on here allude to something about the fewer pellets making it easier to exit the barrel, so if that is accurate then wouldn't using a 28 with a tighter choke not quite be the same as a 24 through one's 'normal' choke as there's more scrunching going on?

Again, don't shoot the messenger, just trying to spark friendly debate without kn0bheads spouting off about it being ridiculous.

*tin hat on.*

The original post says “ if you’re learning to shoot as a newbie “ 

based on that anthything which makes hitting a target harder is surely counter productive ? 

Westley makes a good point regarding light loads for a complete novice . I still maintain though,  that  If you have a few sessions behind you , are not flinching, and If you are worried about chipping the the targets  , that  using a lighter load or a tighter choke isn’t going to  force you to “ get more accurate “ . 

The issue  to be addressed is how do you get more accurate ?  So without sounding like a smart arse ,  can I ask how you would benefit in learning from a clean miss with a 24 gm cartridge , or a full choke ?  

How would that make you hit the next one ? 

What would you actuallly do differently to to what you do with a clean miss on 28gm / quarter for example ?