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farmer7

Invector DS Choke Pattern Pictures

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farmer7

I patterned my factory 725 Invector DS chokes today and I've attached the pictures below. Due to time I skipped the LM and LF chokes. I was using Hull Pro One 7 1/2's which I get on well with in my other guns. All chokes were patterned at a lasered 40 yards and a 30" circle scribed round what I perceived as the densest portion. Not sure if that's the ideal distance or not for the more open chokes but anyway I just wondered what folks thought?

 

It seems the factory DS chokes get a lot of stick (across the pond at least) for throwing poor/wider than marked patterns. It seems neither my Full or Extra Full is getting 70% and the IC is pretty gappy. Time for new cartridges or new chokes or neither and just get on with it??!!

 

Any comments for Sporting/DTL use? 

 

(regarding POI it was blowing a gale shooting freehand so I'm not fussed about that!!!)

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AW13

Very interesting.  Today I shot my 725 using Teague 1/4 & 1/2 for one round of 50 and then went round again using Browning DS 1/4 & 1/2 and I felt that the DS chokes did not perform well and I felt very 'under choked'.

Your pics seem to confirm that the DS 1/4 choke is way too wide and gappy which echoes my thoughts/observation on todays shoot.  I felt like I needed the DS 1/2 & 3/4 in or even 3/4 & Full.

I love the 725 but I am still trying to find my 'go to' chokes for the average sporting round as I don't like to fiddly chokes unless really necessary.

Thanks for the pics, most useful

 

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westley

Can anyone tell me if the after sales chokes by other manufacturers come out as clean as the DS chokes ?   In my experience the DS chokes, fitted with the brass collar, do remain very clean during use. 

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AW13

The after-market Teague chokes seem to be virtually as clean as the DS chokes from my experience, even after a 100 or so.

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Westward

Just goes to demonstrate that for sporting you can screw in 2 x Mod chokes and leave the rest at home.

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Perazzi1990

Interesting to see the modified and improved modified throwing the same pattern!

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Charliedog

all look decent to me for 40 yards

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westley
1 hour ago, AW13 said:

The after-market Teague chokes seem to be virtually as clean as the DS chokes from my experience, even after a 100 or so.

Thanks for that. W.

The above is the reason that I do not go near pattern plates  !

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FreeShot

here is my take on this.

1. Factory DS chokes come in rather "loose" measurements acording to "normal" constriction measurements:

Full = .o38
LF = .o26
IM = .015
M = .009
LM = .007
IC = .002

2. My gun (725 ProTrap), loaded with Hull Sovereigns 2.3mm at 40m (43yds) prints like this:

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I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but I know that the pellet count (with said cartridge) is rising steadily from 1/4 untill LF. After LF (F and XF) numbers drop...F and XF might come useful with 24g cartridge - I guess?

3. In praxis - actual performance in the field is much better than pattern pics...I don't know how or why...

For sporting 1/4 and 3/4 with barrel selector gets you everywhere, for trap - using 28g cartridge 3/4 and LF is all I need.

 

Edited by FreeShot
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Geordieboy
16 hours ago, westley said:

Can anyone tell me if the after sales chokes by other manufacturers come out as clean as the DS chokes ?   In my experience the DS chokes, fitted with the brass collar, do remain very clean during use. 

2 of my mates use Kicks chokes.  I've seen their patterns on paper and they are impressive.  I mean very impressive.  Fantastically even and dense.  With the Hulls, and Express shells (They use exactly the same wads),  you couldn't wish for a better pattern.  Trust me on that.  They stick out an extra 1" out of the barrels but they do open up the wads consistently.  The 3/4 choke in them is tighter than the equivalent DS Invector Full Choke.

In respect to your patterns above, every pellet would be within the  30" circle using a Kicks 3/4 at 40yds. 

My own gun (TEagued Perazzi) with Fiocchi shells throws amazing patterns out to LF (which is simply awesome), however the Full choke blows the pattern?  How the F*$%???   I am an engineer and fail to understand how that could be........but it shows on the clays for sure!

Edited by Geordieboy
added more info

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farmer7

I patterned the Hull Superfast 27g Fibre today. Seems like mine behaves the same as FreeShots does - after LF percentage drops.

 

Haven't looked too hard yet, but it looks like perhaps the much cheaper Superfast Fibre patterns better than the Pro Ones in plastic with 5% antimony shot.

 

(nevermind the '100' on the second pattern, I was interrupted at a 100 and wrote in there so I didn't forget and forgot to remove it!)

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Edited by farmer7
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jwpzx9r

I have never patterned my gun, it is fixed choke anyway BUT I would hate to be someone that gets caught in a head game thinking about all that crap. I can understand why someone would want to use a pattern plate to see where their gun is shooting BUT to test the pattern? The American fellow who posted a very interesting article on chokes , for me anyway, summed it up.  You need a very rigid testing method to test chokes you cannot just fire one of each and say that is the way it is. Not only that but, as you have done, when you start to throw cartridge performance into the tests you add to the complexity of it all. If you are the sort of mind that becomes fixated by the performance of chokes and cartridges as a combination what a state you could get into... just imagine if you could not get the favoured cartridge one day and in a competition you missed the first two targets out ! The last thing I think when a target sails on into the distance is "did it go through my shot pattern". In any case this is not a dig at the OP just an observation on the subject of choke size and pattern as I see it.

Edited by jwpzx9r
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Geordieboy

A bit like my gun.  Full choke is not as good as Light Full.

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jason king

I always pattern test mine,just to see what cartidge throws an even pattern through those particular tubes, as I only use fibre wads,and differant guns do tend to throw widly differant patterns it seems, soon as happy with a certain type just stick to it, its all about how even/regular the pattern is to me. when claying it soon becomes obvious if you are getting good breaks.

            

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farmer7

Final set of patterns using Eley Pigeon Select 30g 6. Pattern a bit tighter than the rest apart from the IC is pretty tight for 40 yards.

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Edited by farmer7

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Doug Pinnegar

This is exactly as I found with mine. The chokes are not as 'tight' as others, but coupled with a decent over boring (18.7 or even 18.8 I think?) then you're going to have to choke up a few notches to get decent performance. I was using Teague 3/8's and 1/2's most of the time.

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farmer7

Not sure why the order is all mixed up!!

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Edited by farmer7

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farmer7
4 hours ago, jwpzx9r said:

I have never patterned my gun, it is fixed choke anyway BUT I would hate to be someone that gets caught in a head game thinking about all that crap. I can understand why someone would want to use a pattern plate to see where their gun is shooting BUT to test the pattern? The American fellow who posted a very interesting article on chokes , for me anyway, summed it up.  You need a very rigid testing method to test chokes you cannot just fire one of each and say that is the way it is. Not only that but, as you have done, when you start to throw cartridge performance into the tests you add to the complexity of it all. If you are the sort of mind that becomes fixated by the performance of chokes and cartridges as a combination what a state you could get into... just imagine if you could not get the favoured cartridge one day and in a competition you missed the first two targets out ! The last thing I think when a target sails on into the distance is "did it go through my shot pattern". In any case this is not a dig at the OP just an observation on the subject of choke size and pattern as I see it.

I don't habitually pattern my gun/chokes/cartridges either but I was curious as their appears to be a lot of criticism of the factory Invector DS chokes and I wanted to see how they perform. I'm not the sort of chap who changes chokes every station either - I tend to stick in 1/4 and half and leave it at other than for DTL. And I can certainly say I have never thought on a missed target 'well that one found a hole in the pattern'! You can without a doubt though have cartridges that suit your gun/choke combination much better than others.

I do think it can be worth doing just to see if your chokes shoot roughly as marked though and you don't have a dud - I had a bad Invector + plus choke before marked at 3/4 and struggled to get 1/4 choke performance out of it using any cartridge. I want more than 1/4 for trap.

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jwpzx9r

One thing I am not getting here, and forgive me if I am being stupid 😄  is where are you pointing your gun? My concern would not be picking a part of the pattern and saying that is greatest concentration of shot so I am going to centre my 30" circle there. I would be more concerned about how the actual shot pattern related to where I was shooting my gun. In other words if you were pointing your gun at roughly the centre of that board then your gun is shooting slightly high and to the right of the centre ... that would be of far more relevance to me than the actual pattern they way you are describing it here... or I am misinterpreting you... in which case sorry.

Just now, farmer7 said:

I don't habitually pattern my gun/chokes/cartridges either but I was curious as their appears to be a lot of criticism of the factory Invector DS chokes and I wanted to see how they perform. I'm not the sort of chap who changes chokes every station either - I tend to stick in 1/4 and half and leave it at other than for DTL. And I can certainly say I have never thought on a missed target 'well that one found a hole in the pattern'! You can without a doubt though have cartridges that suit your gun/choke combination much better than others.

I do think it can be worth doing just to see if your chokes shoot roughly as marked though and you don't have a dud - I had a bad Invector + plus choke before marked at 3/4 and struggled to get 1/4 choke performance out of it using any cartridge. I want more than 1/4 for trap.

 See above and for trap 1/2 and full is perfect... regardless of the 3/4 and full brigade say a 1/2 choke will break any trap target at first barrel distance even with a 24g load.

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farmer7
25 minutes ago, jwpzx9r said:

One thing I am not getting here, and forgive me if I am being stupid 😄  is where are you pointing your gun? My concern would not be picking a part of the pattern and saying that is greatest concentration of shot so I am going to centre my 30" circle there. I would be more concerned about how the actual shot pattern related to where I was shooting my gun. In other words if you were pointing your gun at roughly the centre of that board then your gun is shooting slightly high and to the right of the centre ... that would be of far more relevance to me than the actual pattern they way you are describing it here... or I am misinterpreting you... in which case sorry.

 See above and for trap 1/2 and full is perfect... regardless of the 3/4 and full brigade say a 1/2 choke will break any trap target at first barrel distance even with a 24g load.

I am actually aiming at a mark on the old oil tank! It does actually shoot quite straight though when it's still - it's just it's been blowing a gale here for the last few days!

I know it shoots high, that's how I like it and set it up.

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Wonko the Sane

I have never seen full choke in any of the guns I've had/have, and that means up to a measured 0.042", "blow a pattern".  Mr. Winston has as well demonstrated that increasing the degree of choke does nothing but increase the center density.  And that was all determined by some extensive and analytical testing as John pointed out.  As John also pointed out, obsessing about imaginary "facts" may be counter-productive.  

I have no idea where those choke dimension posted came from but they are not remotely reflective of traditional designation/dimension assignments from anyone.  If those are in fact actual dimensions then you may want to consider an alternate source as what you have can hardly be of much use.

Want a confidence builder?  Be like me.  I can look at the # on a Perazzi or Beretta choke tube and know within a few thou of what it will measure and a perfectly workable knowing of its performance parameters.  I mean, it's a shotgun - remember?

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Geordieboy
On 12/15/2018 at 4:59 PM, Wonko the Sane said:

I have never seen full choke in any of the guns I've had/have, and that means up to a measured 0.042", "blow a pattern".  Mr. Winston has as well demonstrated that increasing the degree of choke does nothing but increase the center density.  And that was all determined by some extensive and analytical testing as John pointed out.  As John also pointed out, obsessing about imaginary "facts" may be counter-productive.  

I have no idea where those choke dimension posted came from but they are not remotely reflective of traditional designation/dimension assignments from anyone.  If those are in fact actual dimensions then you may want to consider an alternate source as what you have can hardly be of much use.

Want a confidence builder?  Be like me.  I can look at the # on a Perazzi or Beretta choke tube and know within a few thou of what it will measure and a perfectly workable knowing of its performance parameters.  I mean, it's a shotgun - remember?

Highly un-scientific I know, but I shot several Sporting shoots (To the tune of 400+ shells), with LF and F.  By far and away, in my Perazzi the LF was devastating.  The Full, much less so.  Clays broke into 3 pieces.  I knocked lumps out of the darn things with full every time.  So Blown or not?  I would suggest that my pattern becomes raggy.  I won't stick my gun on a plate to find out.  I just know that LF is awesome and Full is s#%te in my Perazzi.  So it sits in the cupboard.  Interestingly enough, the patterns I am getting with my 5/8 and Fiocchi Officials 8.5's are giving me more and more confidence at longer and longer ranges.  

Find out what suits you and go with it.  

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farmer7
On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, FreeShot said:

here is my take on this.

1. Factory DS chokes come in rather "loose" measurements acording to "normal" constriction measurements:

Full = .o38
LF = .o26
IM = .015
M = .009
LM = .007
IC = .002

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:59 PM, Wonko the Sane said:

I have never seen full choke in any of the guns I've had/have, and that means up to a measured 0.042", "blow a pattern".  Mr. Winston has as well demonstrated that increasing the degree of choke does nothing but increase the center density.  And that was all determined by some extensive and analytical testing as John pointed out.  As John also pointed out, obsessing about imaginary "facts" may be counter-productive.  

I have no idea where those choke dimension posted came from but they are not remotely reflective of traditional designation/dimension assignments from anyone.  If those are in fact actual dimensions then you may want to consider an alternate source as what you have can hardly be of much use.

Want a confidence builder?  Be like me.  I can look at the # on a Perazzi or Beretta choke tube and know within a few thou of what it will measure and a perfectly workable knowing of its performance parameters.  I mean, it's a shotgun - remember?

 

If you're referring to FreeShots measurements above mine come out pretty close:

IC .002

LM .004

M .008

IM .012

LF .026

F .037

XF .042

 

So apart from Full and Extra Full all way less constriction than should be in them according to conventional measurements. They seem to pattern pretty well considering the lack of constriction in the first 5! 

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Hamster
1 hour ago, Geordieboy said:

Highly un-scientific I know, but I shot several Sporting shoots (To the tune of 400+ shells), with LF and F.  By far and away, in my Perazzi the LF was devastating.  The Full, much less so.  Clays broke into 3 pieces.  I knocked lumps out of the darn things with full every time.  So Blown or not?  I would suggest that my pattern becomes raggy.  I won't stick my gun on a plate to find out.  I just know that LF is awesome and Full is s#%te in my Perazzi.  So it sits in the cupboard.  Interestingly enough, the patterns I am getting with my 5/8 and Fiocchi Officials 8.5's are giving me more and more confidence at longer and longer ranges.  

Find out what suits you and go with it.  

Get a mate to take them out and refit them blind without either he or you knowing which barrel has what choke fitted, it may just be that you are tackling the first barrel bird better or even that the POI may be slightly different from one tube to the next; more plausible than either is that you just don't like Full.

Admittedly I've never been a fan of Full myself but I have also never believed that they blow patterns, the shot to shot variation from true LF to F will be absolutely undetectable on targets and would take a whole day of patterning to prove on paper. 

My theory as to why Full does in fact produce more than its fair share of chips is that most of us kill most targets with the fringe of our patterns, this fringe is still mighty useful on a Mod but not so on a really tight pattern. 

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Geordieboy
12 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Get a mate to take them out and refit them blind without either he or you knowing which barrel has what choke fitted, it may just be that you are tackling the first barrel bird better or even that the POI may be slightly different from one tube to the next; more plausible than either is that you just don't like Full.

Admittedly I've never been a fan of Full myself but I have also never believed that they blow patterns, the shot to shot variation from true LF to F will be absolutely undetectable on targets and would take a whole day of patterning to prove on paper. 

My theory as to why Full does in fact produce more than its fair share of chips is that most of us kill most targets with the fringe of our patterns, this fringe is still mighty useful on a Mod but not so on a really tight pattern. 

Morning Hamster

I know what you're saying chap.  But Full, with my gun and shells is s%#te.  As I shoot registered, I've already proven what works and what doesn't....in my head.  And to that end......I really mean "What gives me confidence". 

So Full stays in the house. 😉

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