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El Spavo

How common are cartridge failures??

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El Spavo

Was at Owls Lodge today and had two cartridges out of my first 100 fail on me where I've never experienced it before. How common is it? Both cartidges had imprints where the pin had struck as it should, just nothing came out the loud end! They were kept inside a dark cupboard shelf in the spare bedroom and aren't old so don't think it was anything I did with storage or owt, or am I wrong?

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MartynB

They , in my humble opinion are a bit line buses ,  in that they all come at once . I had 8 misfires in a 1000  single  batch   of Express cartridges  earlier in the year .  I left a couple at Kelbrook  for them to give to the rep .  Fired through  2 guns , not always the same barrel . I put it down to an issue with either the primer or the seating of the primer . Like you , the primer strikes were good . Prior to that I bet I’ve been through 15000 loads of various manufacture including Express since my last issue , and probably about 2000 since , Being Eleys , Hull, and Gamebore , I lost confidence in the Express brand ! 

On the other hand given the zillions of rounds produced I’ll bet the overall rate of failure is one that many industries would love to have . 

Doubt you have done anything wrong at all, just one of those things . 

Edited by MartynB

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ips

I must have shot hundreds of thousands of cartridges over 30 odd years and in that time apart from the very odd single failure to go bang (maybe a dozen times) i have had two faulty batches which got sent straight back. Its a quality control issue imo and for the money you spend even for cheapos it should not happen. 

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chippy

More common with miroku and Browning's. Much less so with Beretta's

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El Spavo

It was the bottome barrel on both. Coincedence??

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MartynB

If you have  a firing pin issue on a 525/Miroku it will generally get worse . The bottom barrel  pin relies upon a spring to push it back into the action after firing  . The top has no spring , it relies on the new cartridge primer  to shove it back into action. The pins hit the primers at angle , not a straight action like you get in other shotguns , a system which  is said to be more efficient than the Browning .   . Any build up of crud in the slots the pins ride in can also cause light strikes .

 If in the next few shoots , you get the same problem , same barrel , using a different brand of  cartridge it’s time for new pins , and at the same time I’d have new springs too . If you have a look at most firing pins in those guns they do have a tendency to have damage on the tip , this occurs almost from new and many will fire all of their working life without replacement , lots won’t  .  But as you said you had strong primer marks , it was probably your ammo.  

 

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El Spavo

The gun is a 2105 b525, second hand but when shown to a few shooters and gunsmiths they've all said it's very tight and doesn't look like it's had many rounds put through it at all so hopefully it's just a couple of dud rounds, fingers crossed. Hasn't missed a heartbeat before today but will keep an eye on it.

One thing that's stumped me... your first paragraph reads like your saying "the system is said to be more efficient than the Browning"... but you're commenting on a 525/Miroku at the start? Did you mean to say is more efficient IN the Browning, rather than THAN the Browning, or did you mean to write Beretta at some point? Confused.

Edited by El Spavo

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Nimbusgb

4 years about 60000 carts, 6 different guns, 1 cartridge failure ......... so far

 

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MartynB
7 hours ago, El Spavo said:

The gun is a 2105 b525, second hand but when shown to a few shooters and gunsmiths they've all said it's very tight and doesn't look like it's had many rounds put through it at all so hopefully it's just a couple of dud rounds, fingers crossed. Hasn't missed a heartbeat before today but will keep an eye on it.

One thing that's stumped me... your first paragraph reads like your saying "the system is said to be more efficient than the Browning"... but you're commenting on a 525/Miroku at the start? Did you mean to say is more efficient IN the Browning, rather than THAN the Browning, or did you mean to write Beretta at some point? Confused.

The straight ( in line ) hammers are said to be more efficient than the Browning design .  I put new  J and P custom pins in my Miroku 12 months ago . They are a few thou longer than standard , but just like the factory jobs they are now pitted on the nose .  It’s said to be the angle  at which they hit the primer which exacerbates this . 

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Will Hewland
42 minutes ago, MartynB said:

The straight ( in line ) hammers are said to be more efficient than the Browning design .  I put new  J and P custom pins in my Miroku 12 months ago . They are a few thou longer than standard , but just like the factory jobs they are now pitted on the nose .  It’s said to be the angle  at which they hit the primer which exacerbates this . 

Length is the problem usually. If you shorten any pin (while polishing out the pitting) they always fare better than new ones. A lighter strike is less destructive to the pin. My Blaser pins pitted, I polished them, they never pitted again.

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El Spavo

Thanks, I'll have to keep an eye on it then cos I'd have no idea what I'm looking at/for. 😕

Is it possible there's anything I could be doing when cleaning it that could cause any of this as it's all new to me so I'm learning what and how to clean from watching YouTube, etc?

Edited by El Spavo

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MartynB
1 hour ago, El Spavo said:

Thanks, I'll have to keep an eye on it then cos I'd have no idea what I'm looking at/for. 😕

Is it possible there's anything I could be doing when cleaning it that could cause any of this as it's all new to me so I'm learning what and how to clean from watching YouTube, etc?

No , not at all .  You  and your cleaning are definitely not the cause . When I was a kid and skint I used to load my own cartridges . Seating a primer deeper than it should be , could cause a misfire. Primers are made in the millions and there will be the odd blank.  If you get another failure on another brand in the next few weeks you know it’s a high probability that it’s the pin .   If you don’t then it was duff bullets . 

If you want a good look at a pin end on your 525 ,  make sure the gun is empty . Fire the first barrel , push the selector over , fire the bottom barrel . Don’t open the gun , but take the fore end and barrels off . As the hammers are in the forwards position the pins will protrude a little . 

Here is a photo of my MK38 , the pins are 12 month old and firing without issue , but note the pitting .   I’ll probably take up Will’s suggestion some time .  ( ps the blobs top left are drops of lubricant under magnification not metal shavings ! ) 

 

9245187D-9097-464A-A309-AF9535B23629.jpeg

Edited by MartynB

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Bebo

Last weekend my Oh had two fail to fires on the first barrel of his 725 using Fiocchi bior wad cartridges.  There was a clear pin mark, but not very deep.  I put them through my K80 and they both fired no problem at all.  Brownings are notorious for having issues.  I've ordered him a replacement pin and spring set from J&P custom products which should arrive next week.  I've heard good things about them (they are supposedly harder than the Browning factory ones and the bottom pin is slightly longer to overcome the light strike issue).

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MartynB

The  pitted pins in the photo above are J and P !   12 months and 6000 rounds . The first pits came pretty quickly . The springs are indeed excellent , The top lever spring on the Miroku /525 kit  will certainly be noticeable , and cocking the gun is a bit like using a piece of gym equipment !  . The primer strikes are nothing less than very positive .   Bellow just for info . my Ancient  k80 Dural action , pin shown after 60,000 rounds approx . 

059FBBAD-EFFB-4EEF-92E3-281AD6A2D4F7.jpeg

Edited by MartynB
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Bebo
33 minutes ago, MartynB said:

The  pitted pins in the photo above are J and P !   12 months and 6000 rounds . The first pits came pretty quickly . The springs are indeed excellent , The top lever spring on the Miroku /525 kit  will certainly be noticeable , and cocking the gun is a bit like using a piece of gym equipment !  . The primer strikes are nothing less than very positive .  

As long as they continue to fire I don't suppose it's the end of the world if they pit.  It's just very off putting if you keep getting a fail to fire. Last weekend it was just a practice round, so no real issue, but would have been bloody annoying if it was a competition.

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Hamster

Actual cartridge failures are very rare, certain guns though are more prone to light strikes which isn't really the shells fault. I have had maybe a dozen duffs max, not bad for maybe 350K. 

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Bebo
1 minute ago, Hamster said:

Actual cartridge failures are very rare, certain guns though are more prone to light strikes which isn't really the shells fault. I have had maybe a dozen duffs max, not bad for maybe 350K. 

Definitely the case with Browning. I keep trying to talk him into changing and have even offered my DT10 for him to use as px towards something else, but he loves his 725.  He doesn't fancy a Krieghoff and I've suggested he try out a Blaser F3, but he's not having it at the moment.

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MartynB
25 minutes ago, Bebo said:

As long as they continue to fire I don't suppose it's the end of the world if they pit.  It's just very off putting if you keep getting a fail to fire. Last weekend it was just a practice round, so no real issue, but would have been bloody annoying if it was a competition.

The J and P springs could probably launch 28grammes at 1400 FPS without any powder 😂

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Will Hewland

These were pretty pitted, picture after polishing. 

677AA6AF-4362-4EA1-8012-2CE54F5B4F39.jpeg

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MartynB

Brilliant Will , if I chuck them into my drill press in the garage  and run them at a fairly low speed , would I be able to do that with various grades of abrasive paper , or would I need a stone ? 

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Will Hewland
5 minutes ago, MartynB said:

Brilliant Will , if I chuck them into my drill press in the garage  and run them at a fairly low speed , would I be able to do that with various grades of abrasive paper , or would I need a stone ? 

Rough paper would help..

I do them (and plenty of others) on a stone dressing wheel (bench fixed electric one, running fairly fast), but anything will do. Just gently do it, checking to see that you only just take out the pitting. Watch the shape remains rounded. I use a jewellers magnifying glass to check it. When stuck, I have done it at home with a file and emery paper!

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Martinj

I often wonder what the outcome was of these old threads El Spavo, was it a one off or did your pins need attention?

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El Spavo

Combination of potentially a one off but recently discovered my sausage hands weren't/aren't releasing the trigger fully so big stick not go bang! Heap big embarrassment from tribal elders. 😄

On a couple of days recently I've had shots where the bird has been that long in the clear that I've had a second chance to hit it (and, ironically, HAVE hit it, which goes towards me trying to be more instinctive again, have confidence in my shooting and not trying to overthink!).  So it's more likely a technical thing rather than the gun. Had a few light pinstrikes though so I reckon I'm getting the odd one off... which the Berretta boys at my club love. But mainly me! :)

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rocky

Reading this thread has made me wonder what the correct procedure should be in a no bang situation. Does one wait before opening the gun? If the primer is dented is the cart then unstable? Does it get reloaded for a second attempt or chucked in the bin? 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

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AW13

I have only had about 4 failed cartridges and 2 of those recently.

  1. One was a malformed crimp which damaged the casing so I did not fire that one.
  2. the other was a failed primer, it was punched but no bang. I kept the barrel over the cage edge for about 30 seconds before opening the gun.

both cartridges were Gamebore White Gold.

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