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gothicsera

DTL first timer

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jwpzx9r
23 minutes ago, PP said:

 Local gunsmith who fitted my beretta seemed to feel that Beretta optima HP chokes that come in my clay gun as standard were tighter for the designated construction than he would expect.

This is the thing are they ? Choke is not a measurement of the barrel as such it is supposed to be a ratio of the total shot inside a certain diameter at a given distance  DUE to a restriction ... or have I go this wrong ?? eg a full choke will put 75% of the load inside a 30" diameter at 40yds or whatever?

 

23 minutes ago, PP said:

Appreciate views, I’d quite like to have a good go at ABT which I think is similar to DTL?

I don't know what my gun is for sure but it could be 1/2 and full ... you will break every target you shoot at first tube  when shooting ABT, UT or FO... if you are on target with my gun it is that simple! DTL ... never shot it so I will hold on that... but I have heard with a twin shot catapult you are in with a chance :lol: seriously though to win at that you have to shoot really well to win.

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paul b

I have 1/2 3/4  in mine 24grm 7.5 and smoke OT when on them(posibly to tight ) and  dtl know of someone who has done 300 using skeet chokes.

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PP
30 minutes ago, jwpzx9r said:

This is the thing are they ? Choke is not a measurement of the barrel as such it is supposed to be a ratio of the total shot inside a certain diameter at a given distance  DUE to a restriction ... or have I go this wrong ?? eg a full choke will put 75% of the load inside a 30" diameter at 40yds or whatever?

Don’t know, just a comment from a pro gunsmith..

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PhilR
1 hour ago, PP said:

Quick question, does pattern not come into this? My Beretta pattern is much more even with ¾ than with full using same cartridges at same distance, would that not be more helpful than tightness of pattern?  I’ve also noticed that ¾ patterns more even my with both factory and briley extended chokes on my Franchi SA which I think uses a beretta choke (Mobil?).  Local gunsmith who fitted my beretta seemed to feel that Beretta optima HP chokes that come in my clay gun as standard were tighter for the designated construction than he would expect.

Appreciate views, I’d quite like to have a good go at ABT which I think is similar to DTL?

A half reasonable gunsmith would stick a bore micrometer up the barrels and then pull it back to check what the constriction was with each choke and whether that constriction equated with the nominal choking stamped on the choke.

If you want to shoot DTL or ABT just stick the chokes stamped half and three quarters in the gun and go and shoot it.

There's no point in getting anal about chokes if you can't shoot the discipline. There's more to focus on than a couple of metal tubes.

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PP
13 minutes ago, PhilR said:

A half reasonable gunsmith would stick a bore micrometer up the barrels and then pull it back to check what the constriction was with each choke and whether that constriction equated with the nominal choking stamped on the choke.

If you want to shoot DTL or ABT just stick the chokes stamped half and three quarters in the gun and go and shoot it.

There's no point in getting anal about chokes if you can't shoot the discipline. There's more to focus on than a couple of metal tubes.

It was an observation based on pattern..

My actual question was surely pattern evenness is more important than degree of constriction...

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PhilR
15 minutes ago, PP said:

It was an observation based on pattern..

My actual question was surely pattern evenness is more important than degree of constriction...

I prefer to base my decisions on the basis of my kill performance.  I know my gun shoots where I'm looking and so long as the breaks are consistent that's good enough for me. 

You'll find me out shooting, along with the vast majority of my GB and England team mates busting clays.  You'll not see us faffing about at pattern plates worrying about cartridge pellet count, chokes or cartridge speeds.

None of this counts for anything if you're not able to point the gun in the right place to start with. 

Sorry if this sounds blunt but that's how I see it.

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jwpzx9r
15 minutes ago, PhilR said:

You'll not see us faffing about at pattern plates worrying about cartridge pellet count, chokes or cartridge speeds.

None of this counts for anything if you're not able to point the gun in the right place to start with. 

Amen ! 

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PP
8 hours ago, PhilR said:

I prefer to base my decisions on the basis of my kill performance.  I know my gun shoots where I'm looking and so long as the breaks are consistent that's good enough for me. 

You'll find me out shooting, along with the vast majority of my GB and England team mates busting clays.  You'll not see us faffing about at pattern plates worrying about cartridge pellet count, chokes or cartridge speeds.

None of this counts for anything if you're not able to point the gun in the right place to start with. 

Sorry if this sounds blunt but that's how I see it.

Ok, so neither is important at all?  I like your simple approach, I like to know I have given myself every chance (probably due to gameshoot8ng where chips don’t count)

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PhilR

As a former gamekeeper and game shooter (retired last season) I've seen quite a few shooters over the years with expensive gun and cartridges to give themselves the best chance and they still missed or wounded pheasants because they have no idea of how to actually shoot their quarry.

Some of our syndicate members looked horrified when I suggested getting their guns out of the cabinet for a few hours practice on the clays before the season started. They preferred to get the gun out on the first syndicate day and lock it away again at the end of the last day until the following season.

Unsurprisingly they were the ones who could miss the birds all day despite being on the 'hot' pegs.

Others just have any old gun and a pocket full of odds and sods cartridges and don't miss many. Why? They know how to shoot.

It is no different clay shooting. Learn to shoot the discpline first and when you have some experience you can try experimenting with chokes and cartridges. 

Maybe I'll see you on an ABT layout somewhere?

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Davy_B

i always use 3/4 and full for ABT . you might still get kills with more open chokes but you are also going to have gaps in your pattern . so even though your shooting exactly where you should be, you may not break the clay . 

 

for dtl you could open it up a bit but for abt id definitely want the security of 3/4 and full

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jwpzx9r
2 hours ago, Davy_B said:

so even though your shooting exactly where you should be, you may not break the clay . 

Never in a thousand or even two thousand or to be honest even more shots will a clay target pass through the centre of a shotgun load  choked at even 3/8 at a distance of 30 - 35m without breaking . Phil is shooting in the GBR squad using about 1/2 and 3/4 and its good enough for him ! I do know that better shooters will use a tighter choke .. because they are unerringly accurate with their shot placement and tend to use 24g loads for FO  but anybody who can centre a target using even a 1/4 choke at first barrel distance will break it with 28g and probably every time with even 24g. Mind you it is a great , but unbelievable, excuse when shooting... oh that one went straight through the pattern... of course I am only using half choke in the first tube  silly me:lol:

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Davy_B

I dont know man 1/4 for abt seems like madness. 1/2 for the bottom barrell fair enough but thats about the limit

Ive shot dtl using skeet choke just to try it and missed loads where id nearly never miss with 3/4 

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westley
11 hours ago, PP said:

Ok, so neither is important at all?  I like your simple approach, I like to know I have given myself every chance (probably due to gameshoot8ng where chips don’t count)

Oh I don't know,  I find pheasant and chips a very acceptable.   :angel:

Ok, here is one for your game shooting theory, I shot a 100 birder sporting today using my new toy, a 20 bore. I was unaware of what chokes were in it,  as they were in it when I got it. I shot a reasonable (for me)  78/100. There was not a single stand where I did not hit at least 1 of each target, including the high tower and a few distant targets. My cartridges were a mixture of 24 and 28 gram 7's and 7 1/2's. I have just been cleaning the gun and removed the chokes for cleaning, skeet and 1/4 were in the gun. Not knowing which chokes were in it, avoided the faffing around with the safety catch from stand to stand. I now need to find another 20 bore Inv choke in 1/4,  to shoot my favoured 1/4 in both.

Being simple minded, I too take the 'simple approach'  of   "If it ain't broken, then DON'T fix it"   !

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ips
3 hours ago, Davy_B said:

I dont know man 1/4 for abt seems like madness. 1/2 for the bottom barrell fair enough but thats about the limit

Ive shot dtl using skeet choke just to try it and missed loads where id nearly never miss with 3/4 

Totally agree davy, i have also shot dtl with 1/4 and what kills i had were cack.

Fixed choke trap guns are (with maybe the odd exception) 3/4 full. Mr Beretta and perazi etc would have had input from very clever folk including shooters and concluded that is the correct choke for trap. Its only since multi choke that folk have got all questioning about it. Yes some folk had fixed choke guns regulated even opened up a bit but trap with 1/4 ....its a no from me...you can also keep 1/2 

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westley
14 minutes ago, ips said:

Totally agree davy, i have also shot dtl with 1/4 and what kills i had were cack.

Fixed choke trap guns are (with maybe the odd exception) 3/4 full. Mr Beretta and perazi etc would have had input from very clever folk including shooters and concluded that is the correct choke for trap. Its only since multi choke that folk have got all questioning about it. Yes some folk had fixed choke guns regulated even opened up a bit but trap with 1/4 ....its a no from me...you can also keep 1/2 

When I shot DTL we got 3 points for either a dusted or chipped first barrel and 2 points for either a dusted or chipped 2nd. barrel.  Have they altered the rules now  ?

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PP

My points being ....

1) presumably a good even pattern is better than a tight choke with a less consistent pattern, SPECIFICALLY ... my ¾ choke pattens much more evenly than full when using the same cartridge ( which I’m not changing) so I should run with ½ and ¾ for ABT rather than ¾ and full?

2) knowing I have the best combination of equipment for me - maybe this is a confidence play, but it’s important that I give myself every chance in what I am using... everyone has days ranging from amazing to sh*t,  but having the best option available to me in pay helps me..

Point taken about game shooting, but personally if I’m not shooting well enough then I stop, slip my gun and help others in some way, I’m really uncomfortable in not killing things which is why again I give myself every chance.  Mind you having been dragged along on some special days with self proclaimed game experts I’m not sure I shoot much worse than them.  I think the wider problem is that people shoot at birds they shouldn’t and adopt the ‘getting their money’s worth’ approach...  that’s a thread for another time..

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jwpzx9r

16 minutes ago, PP said:

My points being ....

1) presumably a good even pattern is better than a tight choke with a less consistent pattern, SPECIFICALLY ... my ¾ choke pattens much more evenly than full when using the same cartridge ( which I’m not changing) so I should run with ½ and ¾ for ABT rather than ¾ and full?

2) knowing I have the best combination of equipment for me - maybe this is a confidence play, but it’s important that I give myself every chance in what I am using... everyone has days ranging from amazing to sh*t,  but having the best option available to me in pay helps me..

Point taken about game shooting, but personally if I’m not shooting well enough then I stop, slip my gun and help others in some way, I’m really uncomfortable in not killing things which is why again I give myself every chance.  Mind you having been dragged along on some special days with self proclaimed game experts I’m not sure I shoot much worse than them.  I think the wider problem is that people shoot at birds they shouldn’t and adopt the ‘getting their money’s worth’ approach...  that’s a thread for another time..

 

When  member of the GBR trap shooting  team tells you he shoots with a gun measured for 1/2 and 3/4 choke restrictions and is happy with the way his gun breaks targets you are inclined to listen... but the truth is if you put the target in the centre of the pattern most any choke will blast targets from the sky at first barrel distance. One caveat to the whole shemozzle is that although one gun is say restricted for 3/4 and full it does not necessarily follow that is will throw the same patterns as another gun with the same restrictions. For example I have heard that Perazzi shotguns tend to throw tight patterns for any given restriction when compared to what should be seen... I do not know if that is true or not. Another very important thing to keep in mind also is that trap guns made  Perazzi, Beretta , Zoli  et.al. are usually fixed choke of 3/4 and full because they are designed to shoot 24g loads ... when you have 28g of lead you can shoot more open chokes you have about 17% more pellets in the load.

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PP

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it and I’m not ignoring it, I’d just like the answer in respect of pattern even ness versus constriction and therefore density..

To put it another way, is it important to get as many pellet strikes as possible on the target as it’s edge on going away?

Im sorry if I haven’t worded this very well, I’m still recovering from manflu..

45 minutes ago, jwpzx9r said:

 

 

When  member of the GBR trap shooting  team tells you he shoots with a gun measured for 1/2 and 3/4 choke restrictions and is happy with the way his gun breaks targets you are inclined to listen... but the truth is if you put the target in the centre of the pattern most any choke will blast targets from the sky at first barrel distance. One caveat to the whole shemozzle is that although one gun is say restricted for 3/4 and full it does not necessarily follow that is will throw the same patterns as another gun with the same restrictions. For example I have heard that Perazzi shotguns tend to throw tight patterns for any given restriction when compared to what should be seen... I do not know if that is true or not. Another very important thing to keep in mind also is that trap guns made  Perazzi, Beretta , Zoli  et.al. are usually fixed choke of 3/4 and full because they are designed to shoot 24g loads ... when you have 28g of lead you can shoot more open chokes you have about 17% more pellets in the load.

This is great, thanks, I use 24 gr loads as I suffer recoil issues... Does this have a bearing on my question above?

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PhilR
1 hour ago, PP said:

 

1 hour ago, PP said:

Point taken about game shooting, but personally if I’m not shooting well enough then I stop, slip my gun and help others in some way, I’m really uncomfortable in not killing things which is why again I give myself every chance.  Mind you having been dragged along on some special days with self proclaimed game experts I’m not sure I shoot much worse than them.  I think the wider problem is that people shoot at birds they shouldn’t and adopt the ‘getting their money’s worth’ approach...  that’s a thread for another time..

You pack up game shooting during the day because you're not shooting well enough?  Well I'm sorry but you'd have been torn off a strip by me and the shoot captain on my syndicate. Fairly guaranteed you wouldn't be offered a place next season too.

Understandable to withdraw through illness but totally uncalled for because you're feeling a bit precious about your shooting. I don't think you're cut out for game shooting and your 'help' certainly wouldn't be wanted either. 

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PP
7 minutes ago, PhilR said:

 

You pack up game shooting during the day because you're not shooting well enough?  Well I'm sorry but you'd have been torn off a strip by me and the shoot captain on my syndicate. Fairly guaranteed you wouldn't be offered a place next season too.

Understandable to withdraw through illness but totally uncalled for because you're feeling a bit precious about your shooting. I don't think you're cut out for game shooting and your 'help' certainly wouldn't be wanted either. 

Fortunately it’s a rare occurrence, but yes, I’d rather not shoot than feel I’m not going to kill things cleanly.  If the keeper, shoot captain or any of the other staff felt the need to have words then they can jog on and we won’t be back. If any guests shot poorly consistent winging birds on my shoot, or syndicate members they would be encouraged to take a break.  It’s the ‘let’s try to kill everything like my hero on the telly’ brigade that are going to f*** up game shooting for the more sporting people.

Nothing to do with being precious, it’s about having respect (of which you clearly have none) and most people appreciate a hand with spotting, loading, bag carrying if it’s done in the right way, maybe some people just lack the charisma

 

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balltrap
2 hours ago, westley said:

Oh I don't know,  I find pheasant and chips a very acceptable.   :angel:

Ok, here is one for your game shooting theory, I shot a 100 birder sporting today using my new toy, a 20 bore. I was unaware of what chokes were in it,  as they were in it when I got it. I shot a reasonable (for me)  78/100. There was not a single stand where I did not hit at least 1 of each target, including the high tower and a few distant targets. My cartridges were a mixture of 24 and 28 gram 7's and 7 1/2's. I have just been cleaning the gun and removed the chokes for cleaning, skeet and 1/4 were in the gun. Not knowing which chokes were in it, avoided the faffing around with the safety catch from stand to stand. I now need to find another 20 bore Inv choke in 1/4,  to shoot my favoured 1/4 in both.

Being simple minded, I too take the 'simple approach'  of   "If it ain't broken, then DON'T fix it"   !

Thats a good move shooting a 20 bore at your age it will be less weight and less recoil, hope you shoot it well :smile:

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westley
2 minutes ago, balltrap said:

Thats a good move shooting a 20 bore at your age it will be less weight and less recoil, hope you shoot it well :smile:

For a first time out, I was very happy. Thank you for your concern though  !

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chippy

I tighten up a bit for ABT. I use 3/8 and 1/2.

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ips
54 minutes ago, PhilR said:

 

You pack up game shooting during the day because you're not shooting well enough?  Well I'm sorry but you'd have been torn off a strip by me and the shoot captain on my syndicate. Fairly guaranteed you wouldn't be offered a place next season too.

Understandable to withdraw through illness but totally uncalled for because you're feeling a bit precious about your shooting. I don't think you're cut out for game shooting and your 'help' certainly wouldn't be wanted either. 

Thats a bit harsh phil.

1 hour ago, jwpzx9r said:

 

 

When  member of the GBR trap shooting  team tells you he shoots with a gun measured for 1/2 and 3/4 choke restrictions and is happy with the way his gun breaks targets you are inclined to listen... but the truth is if you put the target in the centre of the pattern most any choke will blast targets from the sky at first barrel distance. One caveat to the whole shemozzle is that although one gun is say restricted for 3/4 and full it does not necessarily follow that is will throw the same patterns as another gun with the same restrictions. For example I have heard that Perazzi shotguns tend to throw tight patterns for any given restriction when compared to what should be seen... I do not know if that is true or not. Another very important thing to keep in mind also is that trap guns made  Perazzi, Beretta , Zoli  et.al. are usually fixed choke of 3/4 and full because they are designed to shoot 24g loads ... when you have 28g of lead you can shoot more open chokes you have about 17% more pellets in the load.

This is a fare point john. I have had guns that throw a tighter pattern than others with same (alleged) choke.

Phil is a great shoooter, an ambassador for the sport and a friend and i would not be so bold as to dispute anything he may say or advise , however most trap shooters use 3/4 full and there is no denying the fact.

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PhilR
1 hour ago, ips said:

Thats a bit harsh phil.

Not really. My syndicate is a small farm shoot of one team comprising three parts:  beaters, pickers up and guns. Each part is expecting the other two parts to do their jobs on the day too, not dip in and out as the feeling takes them.

We stand nine guns, suddenly one dropping out buggers it up for everyone else. If we're one short at the start of the day, it does happen very occasionally if someone is ill, we can normal get one of the half guns not on rotation to stand in or one of the beaters gets a bonus day.

Having someone in the team who wants to opt in or out on a whim is a nuisance and they'd get told. There's plenty of guns who'd like to join the syndicate and add value to it.

Similarly if guns are noticed to be taking unsporting shots, are poaching other guns' birds or acting in an unsafe manner they are spoken to too.

It strikes me this bloke is just a 

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