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perazman

Cartridge companies

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perazman

Its fairly obvious like most other things in life that the higher you go up the product range,the more profit margin is applied. This certainly accounts for the difference between game and clay loads. The cartridge companies put a lot of money into sponsorship and advertising to encourage us to use high end products. Lower sales but higher margins. I believe they see budget shells as a necessary evil.

My question is, if a manufacturer just concentrated on producing a very cheap 28gm 7.5 in fibre and plas and spent zero on sponsorship and advertising would they succeed? My theory is they would. Turnover would be huge on low margins but they'd have less costs so increased profit. No trade fairs,no brochures..nothing. Price alone would sell the product as long as it was half decent.

If it worked it would certainly shake the industry up! Take Jockers or Imperials as an example. No publicity but sold out in no time due to price.

I'd be interested in your thoughts?

PM.

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Holianl

The only problem I can see is getting people to buy a unknown brand and how quickly people spread the word. Also it might be the best cartridge in the world but I can guarantee not everyone will like it. Looks feel etc. I could imagine it to be quite hard to get shops to sell a unknown brand. That's were advertising works miracles. But I see what you mean and yes I think it would be a success. That's my opinion anyway ?

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Worcs
1 hour ago, perazman said:

Its fairly obvious like most other things in life that the higher you go up the product range,the more profit margin is applied. This certainly accounts for the difference between game and clay loads. The cartridge companies put a lot of money into sponsorship and advertising to encourage us to use high end products. Lower sales but higher margins. I believe they see budget shells as a necessary evil.

My question is, if a manufacturer just concentrated on producing a very cheap 28gm 7.5 in fibre and plas and spent zero on sponsorship and advertising would they succeed? My theory is they would. Turnover would be huge on low margins but they'd have less costs so increased profit. No trade fairs,no brochures..nothing. Price alone would sell the product as long as it was half decent.

If it worked it would certainly shake the industry up! Take Jockers or Imperials as an example. No publicity but sold out in no time due to price.

I'd be interested in your thoughts?

PM.

You could apply the same logic to just about any industry. A company wouldn't spend on advertising, promotion or sponsorship if it didn't deliver sales. Great in theory but would never work in practise. An existing manufacturer isn't going to suddenly stop doing what already works and a start-up isn't going to get funded for what is going to be huge r&d and setup costs and not have a marketing strategy. 

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chippy

Wouldn't worry me,  Iam a cartridge tart anything cheap will do.

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Hamster
41 minutes ago, Worcestershire said:

You could apply the same logic to just about any industry. A company wouldn't spend on advertising, promotion or sponsorship if it didn't deliver sales. Great in theory but would never work in practise. An existing manufacturer isn't going to suddenly stop doing what already works and a start-up isn't going to get funded for what is going to be huge r&d and setup costs and not have a marketing strategy. 

You do have a point in principal but I believe that clay shell market is unique in many ways, large numbers of people using a consumable in high numbers and there simply has to be a point beyond which ordinary shooters won't/can't pay. 

Few believe the advertising anyway and social media these days coupled to word of mouth is easily enough to bypass adverts which you'd only see once a month (if that) anyway. As the OP has mentioned already it didn't take Jockers long to shift everything they had because they're price led. I can definitely see a lot of companies used to selling shells at sub £200 until a few months ago who are now some 20% dearer beginning to struggle in keeping market share. The winner will be he who delivers a half decent shell at sensible money.  

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Salopian

A very good point Hamster.

Years ago Mr  Muntaz Al Daftary was a Birmingham based DTL shooter who honestly believed that production cartridges were not very good , and thought that he could make something far better . So he did , these were so successful that he started a Cartridge Company , Express .

Competition success and local sales resulted in us seeing cartridge cases littering every shooting stand in the Midlands with Express cases so locally Express was the brand leader .

A chemist by the name of Arthur Phillips thought he could make a decent cartridge so he did , he made a cartridge and called them Kent , fortunately he gave them to a fat kid who could shoot a bit.

A  Hull local called Geoff Dales thought he could make a decent cartridge so he did , he branded them Gamebore , Arthur Phillips ( Kent ) retired so Stephen Dales MD of Gamebore gave free cartridges to the fat kid from Kent.

Whilst all this was going on Al Daftary retired and Express went into decline , not in product quality or quantity , just a management strategy and happy with their market share .

It is my opinion that there is not a finer Game cartridge available than an Express Supreme Game Fibre available.

Recently Express introduced a Pigeon load that is cheaper than its competitors products and far superior .

So it is my opinion that if there was sufficient demand from the end user ( Us) we could be supplied with a decent cartridge at a sensible cost .

If we did not get sucked in by the marketing hype and bullsh'yt spouted by sponsored 'experts' marketing would fail.

FACT :- There really isn't any bad cartridges available on the market today , they all have a use , but it is up to us the user to popularise a brand and drive prices down. Obviously bearing in mind that nothing is free in life , but let's cut out the profiteering.

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Oldblaster

The problem is monopolies, the large cartridge companies seem to have the same pricing policy, funny how they all go up by the same amount, almost at the same time! We need a enterprising company, to start selling cheap imports to give us an alternative, instead of us being held by the short and curliest!

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Hamster
1 hour ago, Oldblaster said:

The problem is monopolies, the large cartridge companies seem to have the same pricing policy, funny how they all go up by the same amount, almost at the same time! We need a enterprising company, to start selling cheap imports to give us an alternative, instead of us being held by the short and curliest!

Some clearly also operate restrictive supply practices, a little like the perfume industry who refuse to allow their products being sold for small margins so protecting the fallacy of expensive divinity. 

I have it on good authority that even large gun shops operating successful shoots don't get the necessary trading terms to allow them to compete with "preferred" trading partners. 

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Paul120

Express have redesigned their Super Comp cartridges. I used to use a lot of them, however they had become exspensive compared to the competition. 

The new super comp is aparrently smoother to shoot due to the new case (looks good with a high brass) and will be less expensive than the existing super comp. 

Lets hope they can set a precidence in the Cartridge Market again. 

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Salopian

Could someone ( maybe Will Hewland?) explain Maxams sales strategy?

Eley Cartridge Company was one possibly the World's finest Cartridge producer , lots of International successes and a very long history .

They then get bought by Spanish cartridge manufacturer Maxam who whilst changing and yet promoting the Eley brand also produce equally fine and often better and cheaper products under the Rio , Caledonian , Claybuster and many other spurious brands .

Is the strategy to make Eley fail ?

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Holianl

More profit is probably made by selling the more expensive eley brand. Also as it is a well known make they probably sell them selves. I can imagine that allot of shooters don't have to budget them selves on cartridges so will simply just walk into a shop and buy them as it's a preferred choice. They are probably marketing the separate brands to fit customers price brackets.

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balltrap
7 minutes ago, Holianl said:

More profit is probably made by selling the more expensive eley brand. Also as it is a well known make they probably sell them selves. I can imagine that allot of shooters don't have to budget them selves on cartridges so will simply just walk into a shop and buy them as it's a preferred choice. They are probably marketing the separate brands to fit customers price brackets.

 

You could not be more wrong on that if you tried :lol:

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Holianl
7 minutes ago, balltrap said:

You could not be more wrong on that if you tried :lol:

:wacko: How does it work then?

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ips

I think holandianl might actually be right. Sounds feasible to me.

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Holianl

I can't imagine  someone spending £15k+ on a purdy shotgun and shoots £140 per 1000 cartridges, but I bet they shoot eley zenith cartridges all day long.

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chippy

I know someone with a £24k kreighoff and he shoots old rusty Winchester cartridges through it. Some are so bad he Carries  a cleaning rod to push the fired ones out as some won't eject.

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525kev
11 minutes ago, chippy said:

I know someone with a £24k kreighoff and he shoots old rusty Winchester cartridges through it. Some are so bad he Carries  a cleaning rod to push the fired ones out as some won't eject.

 

If he'd spent less on the Gun he might be able to afford decent cart's !

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perazman

The current price of cartridges won't effect the game market hugely as its an expensive sport to start with.  A lot of the big boys won't even register the price rise. Your syndicate/rough shooters may drop down to pigeon loads or due to the small volumes involved just pay the extra. Folk are far more fussy when it comes to game loads.

As far as clay loads go I see the budget market increasing,the top end sales staying the same (low) but the mid range (£230ish) taking a real hit. 

What baffles me is why when good quality imported budget loads can undercut the domestic stuff the importers don't seem bothered? Rio/CCI,Mirage/Garlands,Nobel Sport/Edgar Bros. Getting any of those three brands is hard work up north. Two of those companies are big concerns supplying a large network of grounds/shops but make no effort to push cartridge sales.

Why?!

PM.

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balltrap

Eley are not shot by many competitive shooters anymore they were popular in the 90,s but not now. Express market Supreme's as the best shell but there not world cup is there best shell, but they make more money from supremes because there cheaper to make ( Ask Mr Iddon ) As the cartridges prices have shot up yes it is a case of budget to many but the serious shooters will only shoot what they consider a good shell and gun combination. I myself have gone from world cup at £260 a thou to Rio at £170 a thou I consider the Rio to be as good as World cup as to my shooting standard, shooting top shells does not make you a top shot ! 

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Will Hewland
5 minutes ago, balltrap said:

Eley are not shot by many competitive shooters anymore they were popular in the 90,s but not now. Express market Supreme's as the best shell but there not world cup is there best shell, but they make more money from supremes because there cheaper to make ( Ask Mr Iddon ) As the cartridges prices have shot up yes it is a case of budget to many but the serious shooters will only shoot what they consider a good shell and gun combination. I myself have gone from world cup at £260 a thou to Rio at £170 a thou I consider the Rio to be as good as World cup as to my shooting standard, shooting top shells does not make you a top shot ! 

If they could tweak the Rio to have a touch less recoil, it would be perfection..

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balltrap
Just now, Will Hewland said:

If they could tweak the Rio to have a touch less recoil, it would be perfection..

I like a bit of a kick :wink:

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jwpzx9r
Just now, balltrap said:

Eley are not shot by many competitive shooters anymore they were popular in the 90,s but not now. Express market Supreme's as the best shell but there not world cup is there best shell, but they make more money from supremes because there cheaper to make ( Ask Mr Iddon ) As the cartridges prices have shot up yes it is a case of budget to many but the serious shooters will only shoot what they consider a good shell and gun combination. I myself have gone from world cup at £260 a thou to Rio at £170 a thou I consider the Rio to be as good as World cup as to my shooting standard, shooting top shells does not make you a top shot ! 

balltrap  we have been here so many times before but you are stating the fact. Of the people who make comment and post on here I am convinced that 99% could not break more targets with the more expensive cartridge if they did not know what they were shooting when it came down to average scores you would not be able to see a statically significant difference and there is a huge differential in cost.

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balltrap
Just now, jwpzx9r said:

balltrap  we have been here so many times before but you are stating the fact. Of the people who make comment and post on here I am convinced that 99% could not break more targets with the more expensive cartridge if they did not know what they were shooting when it came down to average scores you would not be able to see a statically significant difference and there is a huge differential in cost.

 

Yes but that was not the question asked was it :angel:

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jwpzx9r
Just now, Will Hewland said:

If they could tweak the Rio to have a touch less recoil, it would be perfection..

Summats up with your gun fit Will I have shot RIO's side by side with the full Clever range and they as soft as any of them. I used RIO for practice at the French champs last year and was mega pleased with them and the price on a shooting ground captive market ...€160 about £138 per thousand... a ruddy bargain!

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tiptop
10 minutes ago, Will Hewland said:

If they could tweak the Rio to have a touch less recoil, it would be perfection..

Olympic blue then William.

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