Gun/Cartridge regulation.

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perazman

perazman

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Up north
I've allways been curious how the old gun makers regulated a shotgun to a specific cartridge? It sounds in theory an advantageous thing to do but it baffles me how it was carried out in practise?

Can anyone enlighten me? Is it still carried out today and has anyone had it done? I may have over thought the whole process. Rather than tailor the gun to a specific cartridge do/did they just pattern dozens of different brands and tell you which to use?

 
perazman said:
I've allways been curious how the old gun makers regulated a shotgun to a specific cartridge? It sounds in theory an advantageous thing to do but it baffles me how it was carried out in practise?

Can anyone enlighten me? Is it still carried out today and has anyone had it done? I may have over thought the whole process. Rather than tailor the gun to a specific cartridge do/did they just pattern dozens of different brands and tell you which to use?
Click to expand...
I too have always been interested in this, all very well saying things like send it to so and so to be regulated but what does (what can) it really even mean ? A given cartridge almost never has an indefinite retail shelf life, nor can you truly, absolutely trust that the components and loading regime can be identical from year to year, add to that the difference in atmospheric conditions as well as heat (thus speed) variations from summer to winter and it all gets rather bizarre. 

At best all I can think it would have meant in the old days is to get each barrel to throw academically correct percentages with the customers (then) choice of shell. In other words the regulator would have spent a few hours counting holes and getting the choke to throw say 60% inside a 30" circle at 40 yards, he may well have also been able to at least partially eliminate hot spots caused by imperfections in the original chokes dimensions. Clearly you can only really work down to another choke denomination rather than up. 

I personally think it's a lot of genuine mechanical effort with good intent :mellow:  mixed with a load of bollocks. 

 
I went through this process some time ago with a one-armed gunsmith at the old Westley Richards works when they were in downtown Bourneville. The pattern plate in those days was on the canal towpath - we just went outside and blasted away. The requirements are easier for a fixed choke trap gun, we went forward and back until the optimum pattern diameter was achieved and he then asked me what distance I wanted this at. He was not interested in the results from a clean barrel - we just fired that across the canal. I do not remember supplying him with a specific cartridge. These days as Hamster says you could not trust a cartridge manufacturer to leave the components unchanged if costs could be saved. In my absence he then fettled the bore including recess choking if necessary. No suggestion of reproofing was made. In disciplines derived from the original live pigeon competitions barrels are still "cleared" before shooting commences as before the trap final in Rio.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hamster said:
I too have always been interested in this, all very well saying things like send it to so and so to be regulated but what does (what can) it really even mean ? A given cartridge almost never has an indefinite retail shelf life, nor can you truly, absolutely trust that the components and loading regime can be identical from year to year, add to that the difference in atmospheric conditions as well as heat (thus speed) variations from summer to winter and it all gets rather bizarre. 

At best all I can think it would have meant in the old days is to get each barrel to throw academically correct percentages with the customers (then) choice of shell. In other words the regulator would have spent a few hours counting holes and getting the choke to throw say 60% inside a 30" circle at 40 yards, he may well have also been able to at least partially eliminate hot spots caused by imperfections in the original chokes dimensions. Clearly you can only really work down to another choke denomination rather than up. 

I personally think it's a lot of genuine mechanical effort with good intent :mellow:  mixed with a load of bollocks. 
Click to expand...
Hey, steady on now Hammy, I can recall Elderkins (amongst others) offering this service in the 1960's. SO LESS OF THE BLOODY 'OLD DAYS' if you don't mind  !    :yell:

 
I had an image of a fella in a brown coat in his workshop somehow finely tuning my gun to the cartridge of my choice with his file and him handing it back printing beautiful even patterns! As Hamster has said,seeing that modern cartridges appear to be randomly loaded with anything lying around then I can't see that happening anytime soon!

 
Even the notion of a nice even pattern is itself questionable as to whether it suits everyone ! Lets face it loads of us prefer to see stuff smoked which only really happens when you centre a clay in the densest part of the pattern which is invariably the centre - at more common yardages anyway.

I remember a good while back buying a thousand of the Express Supreme shells, very very nice they were too, excellent shooting characteristics included lowish recoil and they were a joy to behold and load but smoke stuff they wouldn't ! Occasionally when I'd be convinced I'd missed, the clay would still break rather well which leads me to think they must have produced very even patterns with the edges well covered. I didn't buy anymore but they were silly money anyway. 

The very prettiest pattern I ever laid my eyes on was with one of the more open chokes through my first gun, a Laurona and a Baikal 7, there was this discarded Citroen I think (don't ask) on one of my haunts back in the early 80's which I used to pepper for science once in a while and that Baikal printed a most amazing, huge circle on one of the doors which I couldn't take my eyes off for a few minutes. 

 
Ring Teague chokes and ask. They still offer a pattern and regulation service according to their website.

 
Hamster said:
Even the notion of a nice even pattern is itself questionable as to whether it suits everyone ! Lets face it loads of us prefer to see stuff smoked which only really happens when you centre a clay in the densest part of the pattern which is invariably the centre - at more common yardages anyway.

I remember a good while back buying a thousand of the Express Supreme shells, very very nice they were too, excellent shooting characteristics included lowish recoil and they were a joy to behold and load but smoke stuff they wouldn't ! Occasionally when I'd be convinced I'd missed, the clay would still break rather well which leads me to think they must have produced very even patterns with the edges well covered. I didn't buy anymore but they were silly money anyway. 

The very prettiest pattern I ever laid my eyes on was with one of the more open chokes through my first gun, a Laurona and a Baikal 7, there was this discarded Citroen I think (don't ask) on one of my haunts back in the early 80's which I used to pepper for science once in a while and that Baikal printed a most amazing, huge circle on one of the doors which I couldn't take my eyes off for a few minutes. 
Click to expand...
so it was you ? I loved that car ?

 
Hamster said:
Even the notion of a nice even pattern is itself questionable as to whether it suits everyone ! Lets face it loads of us prefer to see stuff smoked which only really happens when you centre a clay in the densest part of the pattern which is invariably the centre - at more common yardages anyway.

I remember a good while back buying a thousand of the Express Supreme shells, very very nice they were too, excellent shooting characteristics included lowish recoil and they were a joy to behold and load but smoke stuff they wouldn't ! Occasionally when I'd be convinced I'd missed, the clay would still break rather well which leads me to think they must have produced very even patterns with the edges well covered. I didn't buy anymore but they were silly money anyway. 

The very prettiest pattern I ever laid my eyes on was with one of the more open chokes through my first gun, a Laurona and a Baikal 7, there was this discarded Citroen I think (don't ask) on one of my haunts back in the early 80's which I used to pepper for science once in a while and that Baikal printed a most amazing, huge circle on one of the doors which I couldn't take my eyes off for a few minutes. 
Click to expand...
I was looking at things from a game shooting point of view. My ideal pattern would be entirely even from edge to edge but each to his own. I'm sure my mythical gunsmith could create the pattern of your choice with his mythical file!

As an aside,if having a gun tailored to a specific cartridge was possible it would be a great cure for those constantly changing cartridges in the hope of gaining a few targets. It would put all those doubts to bed.

 
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