Cheating in Our Sport

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Nigel

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it has came to light from a very genuine/100% trustworthy source that there has been another case of cheating in our sport very recently by one of the Biggest so called stars of Fitasc & Sporting shooting in UK, it's apparently known in certain circles this isn't the first,second or even sixth time this Larger than life character has been caught in the act with their magic pencil !  but again he's got away with it — Why is this ~ is someone afraid for some reason ?  This Cheat like any other Cheat is not only a Cheat but a Cheat is also a Thief as they are stealing from other competitors that have paid to enter the same competition.One of the problems with these Cheats in our sports is when no action is taken these cases are quickly swept under the carpet and only a select few get to hear about these Cheating/Thieving acts, as lovers of our sport all we hear or read are the good things that happen but no one seems to have the guts or morals to Out these Cheatin Thieves when they have the evidence to do so, the Cheats know who they are themselves but we as supporters of our sport also have the right to know, these Cheatin/Thieves have websites with hundreds/thousands of ignorant (no disrespect) followers all over the world who I would suspect if they were any sort of sports persons themselves would not want to have anything to do with these Cheatin/Thieves.These Cheatin/Thieves need to be outed and kicked out of our sport ASAP so they can't blacken the name of Clay Shooting – they deserve to have their gun licences revoked for life and never to be aloud to hold a gun of any sort legally again after all I would say if anyone who has/had a criminal record for Thieving would not be granted a certificate/licence in the first instance, If the ordinary shooter on the ground knew who these Cheatin/Thieves are they would not give them a second look as they walk around the shoots with the  "look at me – I'm the best in the world & you should be looking at me" look on their (2 faced) face smiling down to everyone who looks their way. I think by now you will realise I hate Cheats in Sport — Name and Shame I say !   I'd rather be last in a shoot (which I have been) rather than someone say I cheated … This is MY opinion only and absolutely in no way the thoughts of Shoot Clay — just me Nigel Stewart    Nigel

 
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And breaaaaaaathe. Just a note of caution here people - I don't want any names or even suggestions as to the names involved here - this site WILL NOT libel anyone.  I will close the thread in a heartbeat - so don't waste key strokes. And now... on with the fun (I'll make popcorn)

 
I apologise Matt I ment to say that on my thread – Sorry /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-embarassed.gif Nigel

 
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Sadly there has been funny business going on one way or another for a lon time, the odd person got banned (I know of 1 only to be honest) but really nothing gets done.The problem is that the sport is very amaturish, many shoots the refs are young lads/girls often unsure of the rules and easily bullied or conned into making adjustments. A 16 year old lad is probably happy to be getting 50 quid cash and is not too worried about the end result. In the case of out and out card filling in, I think it's pretty simple- outright ban for life. But sadly it sounds like more hassle than it's worth.By and large sportsmanship is well and truly dead in the water, but there are also plenty of honest shots out there who are straight enough to say if they missed a bird- even if it might cost them the shoot. On a more cheery note it was great to see the prelim at the home inters reffed between the squads- we were all strangers and got on with it with no problems, queries or issues. A great system so long as the squads are called randomly.Ed

 
In the 17-odd years I've been clay shooting I've never seen it, I have to say. Not saying it doesn't happen but it's never reared its head to me or affected any competition for me personally. Like Ed says, teenage girls/boys could be easily swayed but I've not seen it, thankfullyIt's a hot potato of a subject that's for sure! Go steady everyone. I think I have some microwave popcorn ready though

 
Cheating in our sport has been going on for years and it will not stop until a shooter who is caught cheating,no matter who they are or how famous they are,is banned for life as an example to others.Cheating takes many forms from blatant altering of cards to the simple act of brow beating the scorer.Many years ago I did a bit of refereeing and I was surprised by the antics of some shooters,especially if they were in a squad of friends together,where badgering the ref to change calls was their normal procedure.What satisfaction is there in cheating yourself?I can easily understand why young refs are easy targets for such people. Vic.

 
certainly referee bullying is a big part of cheating in shooting and it's still cheatin if it's deliberate but it's different if a shooter wants to argue about a called score all be it killed or lossed - the rules state any query must be sorted out before the next target is shot, but to be caught amending your own score card is another thing completely ! I remember George Digweed wrote an article on ref bulling - it was an eye opener to me as I never once would have thought that would have went on - but obviously I was naive . Nigel

 
Cheating is 'live' in various forms within our sport. That is why I was so gobsmacked with the British Open sporting back numbers not counting for anything. I still do not know from anyone if they had a master score card on each stand. It is laughable.  On the World Circuit to not have any master sheets would not be acceptable to the proper running of the event.To cut down most cheating there is only two simple things needed.1) Master score card on each stand which is checked against the shooters cards back at the office of the shoot before any prize decided. If any have been altered they should bear the initial of the referee and he should be able to identify it when questioned……….otherwise it is not counted.2) Proper referees – not quickly qualified refs who might fancy a badge (no insult intended to the hard working refs out there). They must be fully au fait with the discipline rules and they must up hold them. I have seen many refs being bullied but when that shooter is told 'one more word and you are eliminated' or fined a set of points; they soon come to order. Obviously in this country the rules would have to be clearly laid out and enforced with regards to points lost. Anyone naive enough to think that at the top level it does not go on……………trust me it does…..in many forms.Show them the red card like in 'Oik ball'.It only has to be done a few times for the word to get around.Of course it would rely on our lot to a) enforce it with regards to bans for x amount of months and B) to have the rules all tied down and clear, plus the knowledge of how to deal properly with a complaint and then also to allow an Appeal which is fair and impartial/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-kiss.gif………and that is where it all falls down/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-kiss.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-cry.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-cry.gif Back to the pay peanuts and get monkeys /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif

 
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Sadly, I am afraid it does go on, but unless we name and shame them we will never know. Ed mentioned that he knew of only one person who had been disciplined. I know that person, we were good friends at the time. He admitted cheating and served his punishment, the stupid thing was he is an exceptionally good shot, but felt he needed to cheat just to beat the cheaters who were falsifying their scores.I know of cheats who have threatened to sue if they were exposed, I know of a cheat who was  reported and the shoot organiser over ruled their chief referee to save a scandal. Memo to Matt:- " Is it libel if it can be proved to be the truth?"Note to Nicola  about the British Open.The squad cards were a single sheet with each individuals score card printed on it it was handed in to each referee by the first person to shoot each stand, so it changed hands numerous times making it pretty obvious if you were altering your score between stands. At the final stand that you shot the referee asked you to verify your score was correct  and gave you your total if you didn't know it. Then the referee kept the score card to be handed in or collected later. Difficult to cheat I would think, but I also am in favour of a master score card for each stand.I wonder if the person that Nigel is so upset with is the same one that we all know about????

 
Nicola,Certainly don't disagree with what you've posted but am a bit puzzled by your point 2"2) Proper referees – not quickly qualified refs who might fancy a badge"How can newly qualified refs ever get to be proper refs?  If some one goes on the appropriate course and gets the badge they are a ref.  Admittedly at the "big" shoots they (refs) need to be not only qualified but experienced but everyone needs to start somewhere and the local fortnightly or monthly 100 bird registered has got to be part of the "on the job training"As you can probably guess I am an ESP and occasional FITASC shooter so I can't comment on the other disciplines, all of which require fewer refs but I should think one of the ground owners  biggest problems is getting refs of any degree of experience.  I suspect (read that as know) that most of the "refs" at some local registered shoots are not qualified and should only be referred to as markers!  Some of these young markers do seem to make the effort but some are only interested in their I-phone or I-pod and I'm sure if you blanked a stand and said I hit all those they would shrug their shoulders, grunt as only teenagers can and alter all the Os to Xs.  The problem is that if we didn't put up with this un-satisfactory state of affairs then I'm convinced we wouldn't have any local registered shoots, they would de-register and carry on (still using the CPSA classifications!!) with hardly a drop off in attendance.For obvious reasons most clay grounds are in relatively remote locations so the pool to pull any potential referees from is small and it's not something that is picked up  by non shooters.It has to be a thankless task being an English Sporting referee, I've seen plenty of examples of thoughtlessness and plain rudeness visited on refs, that and sitting under the blazing sun (only very occasionally) or pouring rain (much more common) for 4, 5 or 6 hours with sometimes no relief.  The shooter, quite rightly, expects you to see the tiniest chip off a clay no matter what the conditions and then gets an ear bashing 'cos the competitor doesn't know the rules.  No thanks it's not for me.Cheating is something I've personally only seen once or twice, once was someone using 36g bombers at a non-registered shoot that was clearly marked 28g only. I reported it to the ground owner who didn't want to do anything as the cheat was a regular and I was only a casual, he didn't want to lose the cheats custom!!  The other was people using plaswads at fibre only shoots again a non-registered competition.  I was aware of but didn't witness the cheating that was rife at the many little 75 bird open shoots that there used to be dotted around the Cheshire countryside but they were mark your own so the opportunities were there.  Again I've heard all about the rumours of the cheating by certain high profile shooters that are referred to by the first poster and again I agree that if proven then the proverbial book should be thrown, but I won't hold my breath!! Mr Potter

 
You cannot prove (in a court of law) someone cheated after the event so Matt is right to be very cautious. Even if a master score card shows a discrepancy compared to that on the actual score card, the shooter can rightfully claim it has nothing to do with him and technically he COULD be telling the truth. It IS possible for refs to make mistakes on either the card or the master sheet; they do after all have to multi task a few hundred times in a single day at times and things can go out of sync. I have personally been involved in instances where scores were put on the wrong cards, difficult with my name you'd have thought but it happens. The only way this can be proved is right there and then, if a shooter is seen physically altering a card and is caught red handed then if you have the balls to get involved........................ I honestly can't see that it does happen to that degree though, where do you sit to do the deed without being seen? The top shooters miss so few clays that their misses are often vividly remembered long after the event, so for instance if a few people know so and so defo missed at least 6-7 birds and later see he's hammered in a 98 /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-confused.gif, they'd be raising a discreet query surely?

 
Salopian said:

Memo to Matt:- " Is it libel if it can be proved to be the truth?"
Not willing to take the risk – here is the definition I will go by: Defamation is all about reputation, and in particular about statements which damage  others' reputations.  The English courts have not settled upon a single test for  determining whether a statement is defamatory.  Examples of the formulations used to  define a "defamatory imputation" include:
  • an imputation which is likely to lower a person in the estimation of right-thinking  people;
  • an imputation which injures a person's reputation by exposing him to hatred, contempt  or ridicule;
  • an imputation which tends to make a person be shunned or avoided.
A statement that a person is an adulterer, a gold-digger or a drunkard may be defamatory,  as may an allegation of corruption, racism, disease, insanity or insolvency. Citation for anyone interested.Hamster is 100% right, it cannot be tested, so I won't be the one to try.Anyway – the debate is less about the 'who' for me, and more about the what – the sport should systematically make it harder for people to cheat, and we should have a zero tolerance policy about cheating. Let other people throw mud and and accue people – just know that the right people WILL NOT cheat and will actively seek to make it less possible. Nic's point about better refs, and master score cards are all valid – once again, the sport is in a race to the bottom by not employing qualified refs who really know the sport – that might make some shoots more expensive – then so be it.One idea I have read so far, that I like – is for squads to ref each other on rotation – I saw that at the ABT champs I went to watch Nicola in – very civil, very sensible.

 
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Mr P................I never said it would be easy/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-kiss.gif, we all know the examples given re refs v markers (thanks for stating them because my post was long enough). It is very simple, and operated on many international shoots world wide for many disciplines including FITASC disciplines sporting, Helice, UT. This is how it works:-1) All stands have a master score card.2) All refs are internationally qualified.3) In the case of FITASC sporting, FITASC helice or coo's, the shooter also has his own card (or squad card if squaded) that he/they takes to each layout.4) The qualified ref marks the shooter card and the mastersheet in a particular colour and initials it. The next ref has a different colour etc etc.5) If the discipline is squaded it is supposed to be random computer squading so the chance of cheating 'by squad' is reduced. (No composed squads).6) If a alteration is made to the score card the ref has to initial the alteration as well as the total for the layout. A ref no matter how tried knows his own signature.7) Trap / skeet disciplines has 3 refs on each layout and any dispute is resolved there and then with the chief ref of the layout. 8) All shooters have the right to Appeal anything to the Jury by paying a specified amount which is non-refundable. Of course you can 'prove in a court of law after the event'!/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-confused.gif You only have to look at the incidents from various Olympics that have been to court and resulted in medal changes (mostly drugs but also other incidents, sexual disclosure etc). Not to mention other sports such as Horse racing where there are special legal teams who work full time soley in that area. I know I have used them back in 2009.Whether you win in court or not is dependant on the evidence / true facts that are impossible to dispute. (My day job don't forget.......and no I am not going to offer case law of which there as loads). Trust me.......I know what I am talking about. What I would caution all of you about on this thread..... is not to speak about any specific incident unless you have irrefutable proof (which is not - my mate saw and was on the same squad!) .....unless of course you want to lose your assets fairly quickly. Also you do not even have to mention a name to be in trouble, if the description of events can be proved to be obvious in identification.I agree with all the above posts. Cheats should be driven from the sport..........but there is a lot more to cheating than altering a card or bullying a ref..........that is just touching the surface.........and with that I am not going to expand further.

 
Hammy I''d say Hammy Hamster is a pretty common name – so how could anyone make a mistakes with your name I don't know either  
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 Matt we usually Ref and mark our own squads in our reg shoots here and believe me sometimes you'd wonder if you were shooting with your mates 
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 Nige

 
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Nicola we are not talking about people [removed references that *could* be identified - please be careful -  Matt]. These televised events CAN of course be re-judged after the event and misdeeds (or even unintentional incidents) brought to book.I was refering to the difficulty you`d have in getting circumstancial or 3rd hand verbal rumour to hold up in court. Just as you say it`s no good saying my mate saw him miss but he questioned and got the tick because that sort of thing is open to debate even on the day let alone months later.For what it`s worth I`ve personally witnessed dozens of cases where a hit has gone unnoticed  by the ref AND the shooter at times.

 
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Hamster said:

For what it`s worth I`ve personally witnessed dozens of cases where a hit has gone unnoticed  by the ref AND the shooter at times.
So have I - almost every time I shoot - I guarantee I'd be A-Class by now if they'd seen all the hits I have. 
 
Just for clarity,Most of the points that Nicola raised about how to conduct yourself correctly with a score card are indeed standard practice.Anyone that was trained by Les Plant on a CPSA referees course should and will be refereeing fairly and correctly.Everyone remember 'The referee's decision is final' if you feel genuinely aggrieved go to the jury in the correct manner and procedure.Also ask to see your score as you finish the stand and if you have a question then is the time, not five minutes later. I will call out losses as they happen, if you disagree, if I am myself in doubt, and or the other competitors comment I often will allow pair again ( but only if I have a doubt) (invariably he will then miss the pair/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-surprised.gif)Let's stamp out cheating immediately because spare a thought for the people displaced by the cheats score.

 
Why is it that anybody can take the esp refs course without ever having been in a shoot. They should at least have been in the CPSA for a while and taken part in a few shoots before being allowed to sit the course.

 
bonzodogdoodaband said:

Why is it that anybody can take the esp refs course without ever having been in a shoot. They should at least have been in the CPSA for a while and taken part in a few shoots before being allowed to sit the course.
Why does someone need to participate in shooting if they just want to be a referee? As long as they can press a button on a shooters call and have decent eyesight to score when the clay is hit, what more do you want them to do? No referee's, no registered shoots, think about it.
 
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