ABT Targets - Distance or speed?

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Dog Tyred

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I note there has been some discussion amongst the national bodies ICTSC, WCTSA and CPSA regarding the setting of ABT targets by speed rather than distance.

The general thinking being that setting by speed is fairer than setting by distance? This would certainly seem to be the case when trying to set targets in windy conditions.

Apparently the ICTSC have proposed that target speed should be 57mph (+-1mph) for a 2 metre target (I assume they mean a straight target, measured at a height of 2 metres above the ground at a distance of 10 metres from the trap arm) and that for a trial period ABT is a discipline set by speed and not distance.

Discuss

DT

 
PhilR will be along shortly I hope to explain that the results will differ for each radar gun and the position held. Not measurable at 10mtrs I don't think, some are standing on top of the traphouse and radaring the exit, some are holding the radar alongside the trap plate. Phil has readings for the major trap grounds and not surprisingly the different speeds of the various trap makes. Even the different clay types [weight]

 
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:laugh: the intelligentsia of the trap world making the decisions that affect us all :laugh:

I wonder if it has crossed their mind as to the different types of traps with very different throws or the different arms (long or short) ...

and the way they could possibly measure the speed so that it means something for each of the different options..... L  O  L.

Fast throwing trap.....makes 75

Smooth throwing trap ...makes 75

At what point would you measure the speed?

40UP will be along soon to help educate us all.

Ninja...

I just want to shoot...! You throw it ...i will shoot at it

 
Ooops sorry 40UP ...we posted at same time.

They do not do their research properly do they..!.

It is a shame they don't shoot seriously or they might understand the challenge they are setting themselves.

:laugh:

 
Anyway....if they actually knew what they are talking about they would understand that a bunch of newbies to the International stage (ICTSF) cannot change the rules of ABT in reality .....because they do not own the  ABT discipline....I think it is still an ISSF discipline.

Phil will have loads more info when he gets out of bed....L  O  L

 
:laugh: the intelligentsia of the trap world making the decisions that affect us all :laugh:

I wonder if it has crossed their mind as to the different types of traps with very different throws or the different arms (long or short) ...

and the way they could possibly measure the speed so that it means something for each of the different options..... L  O  L.

Fast throwing trap.....makes 75

Smooth throwing trap ...makes 75

At what point would you measure the speed?

40UP will be along soon to help educate us all.

Ninja...

I just want to shoot...! You throw it ...i will shoot at it
We never had any of this stuff when it was "PROPER" ball trap! It should have been left alone, it was perfectly OK as it was. Right, rant over and I will now go and sit in the naughty corner...........just saying!!!!

 
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Flaming eck not again, you just get your head around one rule / scheme change and then there off again. No other discipline has ever been messed about with as much as ABT, I am beginning to think its a conspiracy and there trying to get rid of it !!!

 
Agree with 40up and tinker,

Depends on the traps on the day and how they come off the arm, Nutty being a prime example of quick off the arm targets so set those up the same as lets say Beverley and we would have a totally different scheme, if this goes ahead we will be in worse trouble than we are now as you may as well rip up the rule book and tell grounds to set up a compact shoot with targets resembling old school ABT but don't worry about the angles or how far the target is going to go.

If this continues then in 2015 I will retire from ABT and concentrate on OT.

 
Agree with 40up and tinker,

Depends on the traps on the day and how they come off the arm, Nutty being a prime example of quick off the arm targets so set those up the same as lets say Beverley and we would have a totally different scheme, if this goes ahead we will be in worse trouble than we are now as you may as well rip up the rule book and tell grounds to set up a compact shoot with targets resembling old school ABT but don't worry about the angles or how far the target is going to go.

If this continues then in 2015 I will retire from ABT and concentrate on OT.
Ian I shot some ABT at SC last week as you know, as far as I'm concerned it was just single trap OT. Those birds were bloody screamers, the hard right birds were real killers, never seen anything like it other than on an OT layout, I'm not really sure what it is now to be honest.....but it ain't BALL TRAP!!!!!!  :thumbsd:

 
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Nope it aint les but were getting to grips with it and now but after 12 months practicing there ruddy changing it again. 54 degree target from 1 and 5 remember and full on OT Speed, its mans trap mate :)

 
Flaming eck not again, you just get your head around one rule / scheme change and then there off again. No other discipline has ever been messed about with as much as ABT, I am beginning to think its a conspiracy and there trying to get rid of it !!!
Nope it aint les but were getting to grips with it and now but after 12 months practicing there ruddy changing it again. 54 degree target from 1 and 5 remember and full on OT Speed, its mans trap mate :)
54deg is a joke at OT speed! I just fail to understand why these people take it upon themselves to change things, especially things which have worked perfectly well for generations. AND.....they change things without even consulting or asking the opinion of those of us grass roots shooters who shoot it! Without the likes of us there would be NO shooting grounds, NO governing bodies and NO sport. I was told when I quit shooting ball trap many years ago, before they screwed it up, that to move to shooting OT was madness. I was told that only the gifted and the insane shoot OT,and I'm not gifted. So now we have ABT that is going to kill off totally,what was once BALL TRAP!!! The old stepping stone from DTL to fast trap is not only dead and buried, but they are building a bloody car park on the grave!!!!  R.I.P. PROPER BALL TRAP!!!!!

 
Calm down you two. It's only a proposal at the moment by the ICTSC to see if they can achieve more consistent targets at numerous grounds. CPSA agreed to leave as is for the time being so its not coming here for a while yet...if ever.

Now if you want to shoot a hard discipline get yourself down to Tamworth Clay club and shoot Ron's Ball Trap and Rons' DTL. :startle:

Sorts the men out from the boys!!

DT

 
Measuring speed will not attain consitent targets for the reasons stated earlier. We currently have what should be a consistent abt as long as every ground sets them as per book, how hard can it be. Whatever system is used there will always be discrepancies ground to ground because of type of trap, background etc but imo the distance measurment will attain the best results, or will it. Lets wait and see what phil says.

 
Measuring speed will not attain consitent targets for the reasons stated earlier. We currently have what should be a consistent abt as long as every ground sets them as per book, how hard can it be. Whatever system is used there will always be discrepancies ground to ground because of type of trap, background etc but imo the distance measurment will attain the best results, or will it. Lets wait and see what phil says.
Have to say I agree with you Ian. 75 metres is 75 metres is 75 metres. Interestingly there was some debate about speed during the WCTSA meeting as one member claimed his grounds target speeds were 53mph to hit the 75 metre mark while the ABT HCIT targets were measured at an average of 56mph.  That's clear then...not!

Just shoot what comes out of the trap house.

DT

 
Yes as you say shoot whatever comes out, think that just about sums it up nicely Greg.

 
I'm really sorry to see that this anality has made it outta the ATA ranks.  Fairness between grounds - what a steaming pile!  I would defy ANYONE to tell the difference between grounds if the targets were properly set at both for height and distance.  The ATA dolts even obsess about different speeds at different elevations!!!  I mean puuuuleeeeeeeeze

I certainly don't have dog in the ABT rules fight but the radar gun stupidity is way in danger of becoming universal.

Make a point of having the targets properly set and then just shoot them.  An any day everyone shoots the same targets.  SO Who Cares?!?!

JMO of course but do shooters really need something else to whine about?

 
I could hear the sound of twisted knicker elastic snapping whilst I was shooting proper OT down at the A1 SG this afternoon.

Now I posted on here some while ago the speeds recorded for a 2m high at 10m, 75m distance target at a couple of grounds using FAB, Promatic and Farey traps.

They weren't vastly different from the speed proposed by the ICTSF, given that there's a +/- tolerance anyway and the calibration variation between speed guns used.

At least they've clarified how it is to be measured, at the 10m marker pole, so someone will have to stand 10m out from the front of the trench at a right angle to it to get the measurement.

A document I saw sometime ago related to using a speedgun at the Home International matches and that's reasonable enough IMO.

Some grounds don't seem to have a tape measure, let alone a laser range finder for setting distances so I can't see the purchase of a speed gun being high in their priority list.

The CPSA actually has an ABT sub committee made up from someone from each Regional Committee, you can find the names of them by rooting around on the website. Needless to say the majority of the members aren't ABT shooters and I can't recall ever seeing the SE Region bod at an ABT shoot.

I will be shooting the ABT selection shoots again and I certainly won't be worrying myself unduly about height, angle or distances of targets. I shall shoot what comes out of the trench to the best of my ability. The Jury is the body responsible for checking the targets are set correctly and that's where the buck stops.

 
OK Phil I see what you mean mate, but I still don't know why any changes were necessary at all. You and I both shot ABT back in the 80's/90's, it was good so why was it changed?

 
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