Jim Wheeler
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Bloody EU again, please read this and strongly object ! https://www.gunsweek.com/en/current/news/lead-ammo-ban-eu-it-again
Lead ban again !
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Bebo
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Just read it. Don't we already have a lead ban in wetland areas in the UK anyway?
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A generally misleading and biased article.
Bebo
Well-known member
This is the title of the public consultation:
The proposal is to restrict the use of lead and its compounds in shot (containing lead in concentrations greater than 1% by weight) for shooting with a shot gun within a wetland or where spent gunshot would land within a wetland, including shooting ranges or shooting grounds in wetlands.
It isn't about a general ban on lead, it's about a ban on using lead shot in wetlands. We already have a ban on lead shot for fishing purposes in the UK because it has a proven impact on waterfowl. That's why I thought we'd already banned lead shot for waterfowling in wetlands.
The proposal is to restrict the use of lead and its compounds in shot (containing lead in concentrations greater than 1% by weight) for shooting with a shot gun within a wetland or where spent gunshot would land within a wetland, including shooting ranges or shooting grounds in wetlands.
It isn't about a general ban on lead, it's about a ban on using lead shot in wetlands. We already have a ban on lead shot for fishing purposes in the UK because it has a proven impact on waterfowl. That's why I thought we'd already banned lead shot for waterfowling in wetlands.
westley
Well-known member
THAT, is the way I understood the lead ban that is already in place in England and Wales too.
ChrisPackham
Well-known member
I'm looking forward to the day when there is a credible alternative to lead, then I agree it should be banned, but not before.
Jim Wheeler
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Ah, well the headline reads; "a proposed blanket ban on all lead-based ammunition!"
It is aimed at all lead ammo, not wetlands which, as said, is already covered. You all need to read this more carefully, skimming over it is misleading. The defra "investigation" was a personal vendetta by a few extremists trying to ban lead, it failed due to no scientific evidence to show lead is harmful,lead has been reintroduced as ammo after a ban of years by Austria, and America have done the same.along with others. This ban likely to include fishing weights too. Not to say that lead is without problems, but the cost of rifle ammo etc will rise dramatically, .22 guns will disappear, along with old shotguns, rifles etc.
As an aside, why do you suppose that petrol became lead free in the 80`s? pollution from outboards and boats was a huge contributor to lead pollution, but hushed for many years, along with car pollution.
there are many views on this, so take your pick.
It is aimed at all lead ammo, not wetlands which, as said, is already covered. You all need to read this more carefully, skimming over it is misleading. The defra "investigation" was a personal vendetta by a few extremists trying to ban lead, it failed due to no scientific evidence to show lead is harmful,lead has been reintroduced as ammo after a ban of years by Austria, and America have done the same.along with others. This ban likely to include fishing weights too. Not to say that lead is without problems, but the cost of rifle ammo etc will rise dramatically, .22 guns will disappear, along with old shotguns, rifles etc.
As an aside, why do you suppose that petrol became lead free in the 80`s? pollution from outboards and boats was a huge contributor to lead pollution, but hushed for many years, along with car pollution.
there are many views on this, so take your pick.
Paul120
Well-known member
The lead ban in place goes wider in England and Wales as it can't be use on Waterfowl anywhere not just wetland.
There was a lot of jumping up and down when the EU proposed new gun restrictions. But these were laws proposed for EU wide implementation and were other than some rules on deactivated guns still short of the restrictions already inplace in the UK.
It might be my imagination and perhaps someone could shed some light on the facts but I seem to remeber that someone said that the increased lead levels found in waterfowl was the result of discarded soft lead used for Fishing rather than the hardend lead used in shotshells.
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Paul120
Well-known member
Agree, it is missleading. Using the thin end of the wedge point of view to argue a point.
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ChrisPackham
Well-known member
I still can't understand why there isn't a credible (cost and performance similar) alternative..
Bebo
Well-known member
Jim, I read the whole article and the link to the consultation they want you to respond to. The consultation is on banning lead shot over wetlands. There is already a ban on lead shot over wetlands in the UK. There is already a ban on lead shot for fishing (it's tungsten these days).
To quote a certain orange buffoon - FAKE NEWS
To quote a certain orange buffoon - FAKE NEWS
FlyingTrotter
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Not according to the countrysport supporting bodies who emailed me - would apply to not carrying or shooting lead cartridges over streams and rivers and that would make a big difference
"There have been discussions recently about another renewed attack on lead shot, this time from Europe. The European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) have been gathering research, having been requested by the European Commission, to look into alternatives and presented their suggestion earlier in the year on how they believe lead shot should be restricted over wetlands. Their suggestion is alarming and clearly a divine intent to see the end of lead shot. The ECHA don’t accept species based control on lead shot as is the current law in England and Wales, they simply don’t believe it works. They would instead like habitat based control as it is in Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as legislate for the much stricter Ramsar definition of what a wetland is. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, they use this definition but a softer version with a caveat to remove peatland unless it spends some of the year fully submerged. The ECHA don’t accept this caveat which means essentially, lead shot would be illegal on grouse moors. The other aspect to their suggestion is that the term of ‘use’ of lead shot includes possession under European law (potential Brexit caveat there), but this means that if you have cartridges on you whilst crossing a stream on the way to your peg, you’d also be breaking the law! The EHCA is discussing the idea of buffer zones but the complexity of such a law would make this virtually unenforceable and a complete waste of public money. The ECHA consultation is requesting evidence on all of the above after which, it would have to go through the political process and be presented to The European Commission. Thankfully, our friends at The Countryside Alliance and BASC are both on the FACE ammunition working group so will be monitoring the situation on our behalf and defending our interests when it’s time do something. We’ll of course be in touch when this is the case. For now, both organisations have responded forcefully to these suggestions and potential further restrictions.Liam Stokes of the Countryside Alliance said: "We mustn’t think that, just because the Lead Ammunition Group’s work was refuted here in the UK, the threat of unnecessary restrictions to lead ammunition has gone away. The new threat comes from the prospect of Europe-wide legislation. It is tempting to think that Brexit will save us, but it won’t. We fight for evidence-based legislation, but if the whole of Europe acts against lead ammunition then that creates a lot of political pressure on our politicians to follow suit regardless of the evidence." Although this is another rather extreme view and attack on lead shot, it is a renewed effort by some who are determined to see the end of it. We must all fight tooth and nail for what we believe is right and make sure that at the same time, we fully respect the current laws that are in place. Enjoy your shooting.Best,Chris HorneManaging DirectorGunsOnPegs"
"There have been discussions recently about another renewed attack on lead shot, this time from Europe. The European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) have been gathering research, having been requested by the European Commission, to look into alternatives and presented their suggestion earlier in the year on how they believe lead shot should be restricted over wetlands. Their suggestion is alarming and clearly a divine intent to see the end of lead shot. The ECHA don’t accept species based control on lead shot as is the current law in England and Wales, they simply don’t believe it works. They would instead like habitat based control as it is in Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as legislate for the much stricter Ramsar definition of what a wetland is. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, they use this definition but a softer version with a caveat to remove peatland unless it spends some of the year fully submerged. The ECHA don’t accept this caveat which means essentially, lead shot would be illegal on grouse moors. The other aspect to their suggestion is that the term of ‘use’ of lead shot includes possession under European law (potential Brexit caveat there), but this means that if you have cartridges on you whilst crossing a stream on the way to your peg, you’d also be breaking the law! The EHCA is discussing the idea of buffer zones but the complexity of such a law would make this virtually unenforceable and a complete waste of public money. The ECHA consultation is requesting evidence on all of the above after which, it would have to go through the political process and be presented to The European Commission. Thankfully, our friends at The Countryside Alliance and BASC are both on the FACE ammunition working group so will be monitoring the situation on our behalf and defending our interests when it’s time do something. We’ll of course be in touch when this is the case. For now, both organisations have responded forcefully to these suggestions and potential further restrictions.Liam Stokes of the Countryside Alliance said: "We mustn’t think that, just because the Lead Ammunition Group’s work was refuted here in the UK, the threat of unnecessary restrictions to lead ammunition has gone away. The new threat comes from the prospect of Europe-wide legislation. It is tempting to think that Brexit will save us, but it won’t. We fight for evidence-based legislation, but if the whole of Europe acts against lead ammunition then that creates a lot of political pressure on our politicians to follow suit regardless of the evidence." Although this is another rather extreme view and attack on lead shot, it is a renewed effort by some who are determined to see the end of it. We must all fight tooth and nail for what we believe is right and make sure that at the same time, we fully respect the current laws that are in place. Enjoy your shooting.Best,Chris HorneManaging DirectorGunsOnPegs"
Jim Wheeler
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Thanks for info Mr Trotter 
, not fake news, but as long as everyone is aware of this, no complaints later when you did sod all.
ultimately they are chipping away at shooting, including target shooting. The ultimate aim is to take away ALL guns, except police and military, and of course , criminals!
, not fake news, but as long as everyone is aware of this, no complaints later when you did sod all.ultimately they are chipping away at shooting, including target shooting. The ultimate aim is to take away ALL guns, except police and military, and of course , criminals!
Doctor Lecter
Well-known member
lead ban on all ammunition world wide wars / armed conflicts would be a good place to start !
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westley
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I agree with what you say regarding the lead ban for shooting Wildfowl and Waders, BUT we were talking of shooting ANYTHING, including clays, over wetlands or water courses where the spent shot can fall and later be ingested by dabbling birds. Lead for fishing in fresh water has been banned for some considerable time now, but it was claimed that birds were dying through ingesting lead shot used for shooting, hence the rather ill thought out legislation. As far as I am aware, nobody has ever produced any irrefutable proof that birds have died through lead shot ingestion, only that some dead birds had been found to have a high lead content in their blood, the cause of which was unknown, I believe. Forgot to add that you can not use lead over SSSI's either.
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westley
Well-known member
Judging by the current cost of some cartridges, in particular game cartridges, I think 'Gold' is already in use ! :lol:
Interesting but in reality aside abundance, cost and hardness density is the important factor . That is where lead scores its abundant cheap, dense and just about the right hardness... the main reason it has been used for many years as a shotgun charge... Osmium there's a thought ... nah too hard and those elements required for an alloy
