Pattern density or shot size?

As you may have seen in other posts here and there, at 37 years old I am suffering with a stiff neck after shooting which is causing some discomfort.

My first port of call is to try some 24 gram gamebore evo's instead of my normal velocity plus to try and rule out recoil as a cause.

The burning question is do I go 7 1/2's or 8's. Do I go for pattern density or more impact energy?

Pattern density - if you intend to have more open chokes. If you choose bigger size you will have to tighten the chokes.

P.S. Have you tried 28g Hull Sporting 100?

Jonny English said:

As you may have seen in other posts here and there, at 37 years old I am suffering with a stiff neck after shooting which is causing some discomfort.

My first port of call is to try some 24 gram gamebore evo's instead of my normal velocity plus to try and rule out recoil as a cause.

The burning question is do I go 7 1/2's or 8's. Do I go for pattern density or more impact energy?

Click to expand...

Let me first state categorically that unless you have already exhausted all the various mechanical means of combatting recoil, that you may well find you need not give up on 28g loads. The effects of recoil as cumulative and will likely continue to get worse unless you do something to keep it under "your particular threshold". Unfortunately that means even 24g loads can in time cause problems, in other words there are more gains to be made elsewhere. 

I used to live with guaranteed head aches back in the day when light 28" field guns coupled to 32g shells were the order of the day , this with only 50 birders too ! Then as time went on and heavier guns as well as pads like Sorbothane became available the problem became more manageable, especially since the move to 28g happened around the same time. As time went on I found I was shooting much more volume on Sundays so inevitably regular headaches retuned and it was then which I resorted to the RecoilSystems compression type reducer, this again helped but didn't ease the problem to the level I needed. I can't recall when but it must now be at least 10+ years since I have had my gun fitted with the PFS stock which is the end game as far as recoil is concerned. The reason this device is so good is because it not only controls the actual recoil pulse itself but has the HUGE benefit and thoughtful design of keeping the comb section static under recoil. To most people this may mean nothing, simply because their bodies/heads/necks are able to ride the combs concussion with near zero ill effect, but some gain greatly from this upwards movement being somewhat negated (remember the jolt backwards and upwards happens 100-200-300 times in the space of a few hours). 

Correctly set up, such systems will alleviate "enough" force/pulse and make "enough" difference to let you carry on shooting sensible 28g shells. I do still get headaches from time to time but nowhere near before and they are generally easily controlled or prevented if I take tablets just after shooting if I feel them coming on, incidentally, stress in all its forms is also a factor. 

Now as to the original question, no brainer I'm afraid, the answer is 8's and density. Unfortunately many so called 7.5's are in fact English 2.4 mm 7's anyway so you will need to do your homework before committing to a brand. There ARE birds I would rather tackle with 7.5 but on an average mid/hard shoot with no intentional silly birds set up to guarantee misses, the smaller shot will break more due to density than it loses due to lack of kinetic energy. 

Thanks for the input folks.  I'll definitely try and find some Gamebore evo 24 gram 8's, these are the old XLR, I have found them to be a pretty forgiving cartridge and they are traditional shot sizes.  My brother has some Hull sporting 100's so I may be able to scrounge a box off him to try.

I currently shoot a 725 with the 20mm inflex 2 pad, so I have given David at recoils systems a call.  I have a 19mm green pad on its way in a day or two.  I have used these pads before on an MK60 and found them to be very good, just have to see if its an improvement over the Browning inflex 2 pad.  I'm hoping to not have to go down the full system route until I really have to if I can help it.

Thanks for the input again guys.

funny you should mention recoil.

I have ever really suffered, or so I thought. Since packing in with trap my neck and shoulder issue (which I thought were not recoil related) has not been a problem. On sat I shot 150 esp things purely for game practice (I have two partridge days this week) and since then my neck has been stiff. Seems I do suffer recoil after all ?

Jonny English said:

Thanks for the input folks.  I'll definitely try and find some Gamebore evo 24 gram 8's, these are the old XLR, I have found them to be a pretty forgiving cartridge and they are traditional shot sizes.  My brother has some Hull sporting 100's so I may be able to scrounge a box off him to try.

I currently shoot a 725 with the 20mm inflex 2 pad, so I have given David at recoils systems a call.  I have a 19mm green pad on its way in a day or two.  I have used these pads before on an MK60 and found them to be very good, just have to see if its an improvement over the Browning inflex 2 pad.  I'm hoping to not have to go down the full system route until I really have to if I can help it.

Thanks for the input again guys.

Click to expand...

Unless you have a very expensive gun with exhibition type wood there's little reason to delay combatting recoil, as mentioned its effects are cumulative and will catch up with everyone, the only difference is the individuals threshold. It is highly likely that your neck problems are caused by the repeated concussive forces of recoil travelling through the shoulder and cheek to your neck. 

People often dismiss compression type recoil devices because they say the shuffle disturbs their concentration etc, in practice of course this is quickly forgotten and besides with some devices (though not the Isis) you can experiment and tune the rate of compression to suit. If you fire guns with and without a recoil device a couple of times as a matter of curiosity the difference may well be negligible but trust me over the course of hundreds in a day the reduction in fatigue is tremendous. 

Hamster said:

People often dismiss compression type recoil devices because they say the shuffle disturbs their concentration etc, in practice of course this is quickly forgotten and besides with some devices (though not the Isis) you can experiment and tune the rate of compression to suit. If you fire guns with and without a recoil device a couple of times as a matter of curiosity the difference may well be negligible but trust me over the course of hundreds in a day the reduction in fatigue is tremendous. 

Click to expand...

You can change the springs in an Isis; a range comes with it. The system works exactly like a car spring/damper unit. You use a spring to resist the force and a damper controls the speed of any movement that is permitted by the spring.

I found that I didn't like the device compressing much (the comb therefore moves backward when firing) so I fitted the harder springs. This of course means the felt recoil is not reduced all that much.. on my next gun I just went for the simple green pad.

I have a Gracoil recoil reducer and adjustable comb on one of my stocks great piece of kit that i bought as a stop gap,i have the recoil reducer set to almost no movement as i didn't buy it for that just the massive range of adjustment in LOP,offset/cant,pad height etc

You can adjust it from way soft to almost no movement at all and far better engineered than the recoil systems pad which i had on another gun.

At the risk of being scorned have you considered a virtually recoiless semi auto?

Jonny English said:

As you may have seen in other posts here and there, at 37 years old I am suffering with a stiff neck after shooting which is causing some discomfort.

My first port of call is to try some 24 gram gamebore evo's instead of my normal velocity plus to try and rule out recoil as a cause.

The burning question is do I go 7 1/2's or 8's. Do I go for pattern density or more impact energy?

Click to expand...

24g evo in 8 work well for me

Jonny English said:

As you may have seen in other posts here and there, at 37 years old I am suffering with a stiff neck after shooting which is causing some discomfort.

Click to expand...

Could this be a gun fit or gun mount issue rather than a recoil issue?

Just wondering...

Westward said:

Could this be a gun fit or gun mount issue rather than a recoil issue?

Just wondering...

Click to expand...

I've been shooting for 25 years and had this particular gun for almost 2 years, so I would like to think gun mount shouldn't be the issue, unless I have slowly changed without noticing. The cartridges and a green pad was the easiest/ low cost option to set off with to start ruling things out. Posture is the hardest one to rule out without taping a rubber comb raiser on and some plywood to the rib.

As has been mentioned here many times the amount of downpitch can seriously affect the apparent recoil.    My guns now all run somewhere between zero and fractions of an inch.  My Beretta SxS kicked the crap outta me until I bothered to check and found that it had over 6" downpitch at the muzzle.  The belt sander put a quick fix on that and cured the problem.

JMO of course and YMMV

Firstly I agree with all of the above.  Seems to me that you have poor gun fit and that needs to be rectified first.  I shoot trap type stocks for Sporting....and game, as I find that with drop at the heel the gun lifts into my face......and mine is very pretty and needs TLC I can assure you.  

However, as per your initial question above......You need both Shot Density and Kinetic to break clays.  I can iterate on here that I know lads who shoot long range stuff with 24gram 7 shot shells at range and hit the same as I would with 28 gram.  I can go on about busting chondels at Sporting Targets with 8 shot at 80+ yds, but can also remember hearing 8's ping off trap targets at range..... :wacko:  

I'd give Fblack Sporting 8.5's a dance in 28gram and then fblacks 24 gram in 7.5s a look.  The wads in these pattern very tightly (in several guns I know), and the recoil feel (although subjective) is easy on me (personally)

I shoot mainly 8's as I get my best breaks at normal sporting distances with them i.e. 60m.  But when you see a rabbit clay being thrown at 70m off a hill or quartering (I have...[plenty of times), then big balls and tight chokes are needed to GUARANTEE a break!  I shoot probably 80% 8's and pop in a tight patterning 7 for long stuff.  Will the 8's break out there???.........yes.....I have done it.....lots.......but when every last target is required on the card to get a score.......you need to be sure in your own mind that you are putting something in that will break the target EVERY TIME.......and having patterned F-blacks against other shells......they are so tight in my gun that I know they will do their stuff out there.

Hope this helps!

Geordieboy said:

Firstly I agree with all of the above.  Seems to me that you have poor gun fit and that needs to be rectified first.  I shoot trap type stocks for Sporting....and game, as I find that with drop at the heel the gun lifts into my face......and mine is very pretty and needs TLC I can assure you.  

However, as per your initial question above......You need both Shot Density and Kinetic to break clays.  I can iterate on here that I know lads who shoot long range stuff with 24gram 7 shot shells at range and hit the same as I would with 28 gram.  I can go on about busting chondels at Sporting Targets with 8 shot at 80+ yds, but can also remember hearing 8's ping off trap targets at range..... :wacko:  

I'd give Fblack Sporting 8.5's a dance in 28gram and then fblacks 24 gram in 7.5s a look.  The wads in these pattern very tightly (in several guns I know), and the recoil feel (although subjective) is easy on me (personally)

I shoot mainly 8's as I get my best breaks at normal sporting distances with them i.e. 60m.  But when you see a rabbit clay being thrown at 70m off a hill or quartering (I have...[plenty of times), then big balls and tight chokes are needed to GUARANTEE a break!  I shoot probably 80% 8's and pop in a tight patterning 7 for long stuff.  Will the 8's break out there???.........yes.....I have done it.....lots.......but when every last target is required on the card to get a score.......you need to be sure in your own mind that you are putting something in that will break the target EVERY TIME.......and having patterned F-blacks against other shells......they are so tight in my gun that I know they will do their stuff out there.

Hope this helps!

Click to expand...

With the greatest respect, what indication led you to believe that poor gun fit is at fault ? The OP is clearly experienced and has shot for years, why can't we just accept that some people are simply more prone to recoil issues. There is only so much gun fit will do and you can't change the laws of physics. I know a career shooting instructor who has taught for the last 25 years against whom I used to compete back in the day, he was one to beat and knew how to hold and point a gun but hasn't shot clays for decades now because recoil was affecting his neck and his health came first. I also know one or two others who despite being excellent shots and physically massive blokes winced at recoil to their shoulder. 

As much as I like Fiocchi FBlacks they're the last shell I'd recommend here, they are almost universally known to be a tad on the lively side. When I started seriously looking at alternatives to my usual Superbs they were the first one I turned to because they offer true English 8's and are/were sensibly priced compared to almost everything else in their category. Excellent as they are I quickly found that even through my PFS gun they were giving me shoulder issues after only a couple of thou.........and I almost never suffer shoulder pain recoil wise !! The 24g version I am sure will be an excellent performer but not certain they offer true 8's. 

Good Point Hamster.  I can only speak from experience to be fair and when a gun doesn't fit....it hurts!  Therefore, if we remove all I have said in the above then a smooth shooting shell is what is required....regardless of load weight.  I fully appreciate that the gentleman in question is a respectable shot and a knows a bit about what we iterate on about here.  

My intention was only to help, and to be honest with everyone here....including myself, if I can't see him shoot then I can't form an opinion.  So whilst honourable my intentions truly are.....they are worth not a jot if I don't see that lad have a pop.  Apologies if I appeared to sound disrespectful.....entirely not my intention!

REgarding shells..I did say that and I quote; "I'd give Fblack Sporting 8.5's a dance in 28gram and then fblacks 24 gram in 7.5s a look.  The wads in these pattern very tightly (in several guns I know), and the recoil feel (although subjective) is easy on me (personally)"

Jonny English asked for opinions on smooth shells an shot size, and to that end I did respond in kind with my own Personal findings....before I digressed.  

So Jonny, apologies if they are needed my good man.  I wouldn't hurt a fly.  I can't even seem to hurt that many clays lately so there you go!  :wink:

I can't see there's much in it between 8's and 7.5's you are talking fractions, but l think there would be more kinetic energy in a 7 at distance. Easy to get caught up in numbers, just suck it and see! 

Hamster said:

With the greatest respect, what indication led you to believe that poor gun fit is at fault ?

Click to expand...

Probably my fault. :wink:

My reasoning is simply that in many aspects of life and for various reasons such as loss of fitness or vision changes, we can make tiny amendments to the way we do things without really noticing. Anyone can unwittingly introduce something such as extra tensing up of the shoulder and/or neck muscles whilst concentrating or trying extra hard (Ask any computer programmer or graphic designer). And in shooting I've witnessed exactly that, leading to a change in gun mount and consequently missed simple targets - which then causes more tension etc. etc.

Whilst it's probable that growing older plays the biggest part in this, any coach will tell you that bad habits can creep in with even the very best exponents of a physical activity. Roger Federer didn't get to the top and certainly wouldn't stay at the top without constant attention from a team of gurus.

Message for Hamster on here.  What shells do you shoot?  Recoil is a perception and as a rather soft and malleable Geordie, I wouldn't mind a crack of what you shoot if you find F-blacks punchy.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but soft shells seem to be the thing on here (at least a little bit)