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ips

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
15,642
shot esp this morning, shot it on delay as I was billy no mates and shot it as I would on a game day, gun down safety off just before mount etc.

I concluded that if I saw the barrell or bead in any way I was likely to miss. Also if I focused hard on leading edge and trusted my gun mount and pulled the trigger as soon as mounted, and trusted that the gun shoots were I look then hits were forthcoming. Keeping the mount and the swing very smooth also paid dividends.

I am definitely improving and becoming more confident however I still cant see any lead. Swing through on everything as I don't bother with those stupid trick targets that go up then stop or stupid jumping rabbits I only shoot stuff that replicates game.

got me thinking that further to my other post about difficulty and stupid esp targets. Should there not be two separate sporting disciplines, one with only targets that replicate game and another for the stupid trick shots. ???

 
There are those that would have us believe you've just accurately described the difference between English Sporting and FITASC...

 
really ?

so fitasc presumably doesn't have bouncing rabbits and springing things that stop mid air and the drop like a rock??

if so I need to find me some fitasc's ?

 
really ?

so fitasc presumably doesn't have bouncing rabbits and springing things that stop mid air and the drop like a rock??

if so I need to find me some fitasc's ?
:rolleyes:  IPS does fitarse  :lol: you cannot hit esp targets

 
IPS - that's how I tend to shoot as well. I never see lead, if someone says "give it another foot" I have no idea what they mean. I also agree with you re the bead or barrel; if I see either I miss. 

A very good shot who mainly shoot game described to me exactly what you said above and for me it is working, he just raises the gun to his cheek never taking his eye of the clay and shoots. I still need to improve on mount consistancy.

 
AW13

have you read Percy stanbury book called shotgun marksmanship, old book now and its for game not clay but the method that you and i use is outlined very well plus some other very in-depth stuff. A brilliant read, I got a used copy of amazon for about £4 I thoroughly recommend it.

 
I have seen parts and Robert Churchill.  I will get a copy of Stanbury's book.   

I have also found the following interesting, not saying it is a 'one truth' just an interestimg opinion which has helped me:

http://www.doncurrie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Churchills-Axiom-FINAL.pdf

The Churchill Method of Shooting

June 24 3 min read

An axiom is defined as a proposition that needs no proof and is considered to be self-evident. It is truth taken for granted, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other truths. Axioms contrast sharply with opinions or conjecture. Axioms such as:  

  • “You can’t be in two places at once,”
  • “Something either is, or it isn’t,”  
  • “Every thing exists.”
are essential and inviolable truths. Is there an axiom we can reference when attempting to intercept a moving object? Whether catching an outfield fly with a baseball mitt, hitting a baseball with a bat, or intercepting a volleyed tennis ball with a racquet, there is indeed an axiom we can apply: “Keep your eye on the ball”. Few would disagree with this essential truth. Is it possible to catch a baseball while looking at the mitt, or hit a baseball while looking at the bat? Sure. And blind squirrels find nuts every now and then too. But when intercepting a moving object, the applicable “rule” is to maintain constant visual focus on the object we are trying to intercept, and not the object we are trying to intercept it with. This was the basis of Robert Churchill’s Theory of Allowance, one of the most important elements of what we now refer to as The Churchill Method, and his most important contribution to wing and clay shooting. While Churchill is often maligned and just as frequently misunderstood, he took the above axiom about intercepting moving objects and broadened its application to include the art and action of engaging moving targets with a shotgun. In his initial work “How to Shoot” (cir. 1925) and his later quintessential work “Game Shooting” (1955) he proclaimed, “the shooter should not be conscious of his muzzle, the rib or sight. His eye, or rather his attention, should be fully occupied with the bird, and, if he holds his gun properly, he will hit whatever he is looking at.” When shooting a “long gun” man’s natural tendency was, and continues to be, to consciously align the gun barrel or aim in order to apply forward allowance. Against this backdrop, Churchill’s axiom was groundbreaking. He further urged his students, “by correct mounting and body work, shoot naturally without constraint or effort [seemingly] straight at the bird; but subconsciously, overthrowing a little and so giving the necessary lead.” It sounds like voodoo, but it works.  While others, like Churchill’s contemporary Percy Stanbury, later followed Churchill with well recognized written works, no one before or since Churchill has advanced a theory, or articulated a principle, that is more significant for the wing and clay shooter. Among sporting clays shooters however, a sizable school of thought persists that these principles don’t apply in our sport. We encourage our squad mates to tell us what lead or gap they see between the target and the barrel after they pull the trigger (even though it is virtually impossible for us to replicate the duality of focus that our squad-mates used to measure their three-foot lead). If you insist on measuring lead, magazine articles abound that reinforce the merits of measuring perceived lead. One can even purchase a big “honkin” green or orange front sight in order to see the barrel better, or purchase a DVD on how to calculate the lead applied to specific shots.

When I first started shooting sporting clays, I read a bit about The Churchill Method. At first glance, and for a number of years thereafter, I couldn’t understand the concept of trusting the subconscious to apply lead or how a shooter could consistently hit clay targets without consciously and visually steering the gun to engage the target.  From the age of 8, when I first started competing in NRA small bore, through my tenure in the US Army as both an instructor and an operator, I had employed, taught and nicely perfected the technique of lining up the sights of a firearm to meet the center of a target. So, like many other neophytes to the world of sporting clays that stumbled across Churchill, I summarily dismissed his method as impractical and illogical. It wasn’t until years later, that I experienced my epiphany under the watchful eye of an instructor. I came to understand that sporting clays targets, as with game birds, must be engaged in a wholly different fashion than a stationary target. We point a shotgun. We do not aim it. We intercept or engage a clay target much like we do a baseball, with the target being the sole object of our visual focus.  Any awareness of, or focus on, the mitt or the gun barrel diminishes our focus on the object being intercepted thus reducing the quality of the data reaching our eye, optic nerve and cerebral computer.

Since my conversion, I have tried to understand why Churchill’s Theory of Allowance and his method are not more in the forefront of current thought. A quick on-line search of “Churchill Method” will turn up a number of “experts” that summarily dismiss the Churchill Method because of what I would classify as misperception about the man and his method. The two distinct elements of The Churchill Method are 1) his Theory of Allowance, and 2) his method of mounting and moving to the bird. While it is not possible to mount a comprehensive defense of The Churchill Method here, it is critical to differentiate his personal style of shooting from The Method. I will concede that Robert Churchill employed a stance and foot position that was quite open with weight evenly distributed over both feet. While his stance was indeed unconventional, it compensated for his stout build and enabled him to swing to a target better than almost all of his contemporaries. In “Game Shooting”, Churchill himself acknowledges that stance should be adjusted or customized to the shooter. While I am a strong advocate of a consistent “ready position” or starting position, I will further concede that Churchill’s recommended “ready position”, with “gun stock pressed tight under the right arm…and barrels on a line with the right shoulder, and at a right angle to the torso” might not be appropriate for many modern target presentations. It was however, and still remains, the gold standard for engaging flushing birds, which was Churchill’s primary orientation. Most who reject The Churchill Method do so because they have not delved deeply enough into his work. To discard his method on the grounds of his style is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. His “Theory of Allowance” and detailed instruction on mount and movement are his greatest gifts to posterity. I employ and teach my students a stance that is more oblique to the target line than Churchill’s, with the lead foot pointed just off the anticipated break point, more akin to the style of Percy Stanbury, a Churchill contemporary. This seems to work better for most shooters although, an mentioned earlier, stance should be individualized to a degree.

With the wide variety of target trajectories we encounter in modern sporting clays and the fact that their flight paths are more predictable than game birds, the shotgun barrel on a given target presentation should be consciously oriented on the hold point and target line just prior to calling for the target. Once the target is launched, the gun barrel(s) should remain oriented on the target line while the shooter moves with the target and simultaneously mounts the gun to the cheek and shoulder. The target line, or trajectory of the target, should dictate the shooter’s hold point and barrel orientation. Past that, having read everything available by or on Churchill, The Churchill Method is as much “essential truth” today, as it was 60 years ago. So, before traveling down one of the many rabbit holes available to shooters in search of the newest target engagement method, understand that the world will always be round, the planets will continue to revolve around the sun, and in order to engage a moving target we need to apply sharp visual focus to it, without any visual awareness of the gun barrel. These are timeless truths.

- Don Currie, Chief NSCA Instructor

 
interesting.

I seem to adopt some kind of stanbury / Churchill method. I definitely cannot see or comprehend lead in any quantifiable manner it is imparted via gun speed.

 
When ones rough shooting, one does not consider ones stance or foot position, one just shoots the bloody thing.  :D

 
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So -  do you do this when clay shooting? If not why not, surely it is the same but less feathers!

 
interesting.

I seem to adopt some kind of stanbury / Churchill method. I definitely cannot see or comprehend lead in any quantifiable manner it is imparted via gun speed.
That's about as far from how I shoot as possible. I was having problems shooting long targets with my normal maintained lead method so I now ambush them with a stationary gun. I regularly see 20 and 25 ft of lead. I seem to be able to repeat it easier than using maintained lead.

 
F

That's about as far from how I shoot as possible. I was having problems shooting long targets with my normal maintained lead method so I now ambush them with a stationary gun. I regularly see 20 and 25 ft of lead. I seem to be able to repeat it easier than using maintained lead.
funny isn't it. In fact stanbury alludes to the fact that many of us have said on here and that is that we all perceive lead differently and 8' to one shooter is 9" to another. I have no idea how anyone has the mental capacity to gauge a given yardage in the heat of the moment.

 
I have seen parts and Robert Churchill.  I will get a copy of Stanbury's book.   

I have also found the following interesting, not saying it is a 'one truth' just an interestimg opinion which has helped me:

http://www.doncurrie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Churchills-Axiom-FINAL.pdf

The Churchill Method of Shooting

June 24 3 min read

An axiom is defined as a proposition that needs no proof and is considered to be self-evident. It is truth taken for granted, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other truths. Axioms contrast sharply with opinions or conjecture. Axioms such as:  

  • “You can’t be in two places at once,”
  • “Something either is, or it isn’t,”  
  • “Every thing exists.”
are essential and inviolable truths. Is there an axiom we can reference when attempting to intercept a moving object? Whether catching an outfield fly with a baseball mitt, hitting a baseball with a bat, or intercepting a volleyed tennis ball with a racquet, there is indeed an axiom we can apply: “Keep your eye on the ball”. Few would disagree with this essential truth. Is it possible to catch a baseball while looking at the mitt, or hit a baseball while looking at the bat? Sure. And blind squirrels find nuts every now and then too. But when intercepting a moving object, the applicable “rule” is to maintain constant visual focus on the object we are trying to intercept, and not the object we are trying to intercept it with. This was the basis of Robert Churchill’s Theory of Allowance, one of the most important elements of what we now refer to as The Churchill Method, and his most important contribution to wing and clay shooting. While Churchill is often maligned and just as frequently misunderstood, he took the above axiom about intercepting moving objects and broadened its application to include the art and action of engaging moving targets with a shotgun. In his initial work “How to Shoot” (cir. 1925) and his later quintessential work “Game Shooting” (1955) he proclaimed, “the shooter should not be conscious of his muzzle, the rib or sight. His eye, or rather his attention, should be fully occupied with the bird, and, if he holds his gun properly, he will hit whatever he is looking at.” When shooting a “long gun” man’s natural tendency was, and continues to be, to consciously align the gun barrel or aim in order to apply forward allowance. Against this backdrop, Churchill’s axiom was groundbreaking. He further urged his students, “by correct mounting and body work, shoot naturally without constraint or effort [seemingly] straight at the bird; but subconsciously, overthrowing a little and so giving the necessary lead.” It sounds like voodoo, but it works.  While others, like Churchill’s contemporary Percy Stanbury, later followed Churchill with well recognized written works, no one before or since Churchill has advanced a theory, or articulated a principle, that is more significant for the wing and clay shooter. Among sporting clays shooters however, a sizable school of thought persists that these principles don’t apply in our sport. We encourage our squad mates to tell us what lead or gap they see between the target and the barrel after they pull the trigger (even though it is virtually impossible for us to replicate the duality of focus that our squad-mates used to measure their three-foot lead). If you insist on measuring lead, magazine articles abound that reinforce the merits of measuring perceived lead. One can even purchase a big “honkin” green or orange front sight in order to see the barrel better, or purchase a DVD on how to calculate the lead applied to specific shots.

When I first started shooting sporting clays, I read a bit about The Churchill Method. At first glance, and for a number of years thereafter, I couldn’t understand the concept of trusting the subconscious to apply lead or how a shooter could consistently hit clay targets without consciously and visually steering the gun to engage the target.  From the age of 8, when I first started competing in NRA small bore, through my tenure in the US Army as both an instructor and an operator, I had employed, taught and nicely perfected the technique of lining up the sights of a firearm to meet the center of a target. So, like many other neophytes to the world of sporting clays that stumbled across Churchill, I summarily dismissed his method as impractical and illogical. It wasn’t until years later, that I experienced my epiphany under the watchful eye of an instructor. I came to understand that sporting clays targets, as with game birds, must be engaged in a wholly different fashion than a stationary target. We point a shotgun. We do not aim it. We intercept or engage a clay target much like we do a baseball, with the target being the sole object of our visual focus.  Any awareness of, or focus on, the mitt or the gun barrel diminishes our focus on the object being intercepted thus reducing the quality of the data reaching our eye, optic nerve and cerebral computer.

Since my conversion, I have tried to understand why Churchill’s Theory of Allowance and his method are not more in the forefront of current thought. A quick on-line search of “Churchill Method” will turn up a number of “experts” that summarily dismiss the Churchill Method because of what I would classify as misperception about the man and his method. The two distinct elements of The Churchill Method are 1) his Theory of Allowance, and 2) his method of mounting and moving to the bird. While it is not possible to mount a comprehensive defense of The Churchill Method here, it is critical to differentiate his personal style of shooting from The Method. I will concede that Robert Churchill employed a stance and foot position that was quite open with weight evenly distributed over both feet. While his stance was indeed unconventional, it compensated for his stout build and enabled him to swing to a target better than almost all of his contemporaries. In “Game Shooting”, Churchill himself acknowledges that stance should be adjusted or customized to the shooter. While I am a strong advocate of a consistent “ready position” or starting position, I will further concede that Churchill’s recommended “ready position”, with “gun stock pressed tight under the right arm…and barrels on a line with the right shoulder, and at a right angle to the torso” might not be appropriate for many modern target presentations. It was however, and still remains, the gold standard for engaging flushing birds, which was Churchill’s primary orientation. Most who reject The Churchill Method do so because they have not delved deeply enough into his work. To discard his method on the grounds of his style is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. His “Theory of Allowance” and detailed instruction on mount and movement are his greatest gifts to posterity. I employ and teach my students a stance that is more oblique to the target line than Churchill’s, with the lead foot pointed just off the anticipated break point, more akin to the style of Percy Stanbury, a Churchill contemporary. This seems to work better for most shooters although, an mentioned earlier, stance should be individualized to a degree.

With the wide variety of target trajectories we encounter in modern sporting clays and the fact that their flight paths are more predictable than game birds, the shotgun barrel on a given target presentation should be consciously oriented on the hold point and target line just prior to calling for the target. Once the target is launched, the gun barrel(s) should remain oriented on the target line while the shooter moves with the target and simultaneously mounts the gun to the cheek and shoulder. The target line, or trajectory of the target, should dictate the shooter’s hold point and barrel orientation. Past that, having read everything available by or on Churchill, The Churchill Method is as much “essential truth” today, as it was 60 years ago. So, before traveling down one of the many rabbit holes available to shooters in search of the newest target engagement method, understand that the world will always be round, the planets will continue to revolve around the sun, and in order to engage a moving target we need to apply sharp visual focus to it, without any visual awareness of the gun barrel. These are timeless truths.

- Don Currie, Chief NSCA Instructor
having now read the above in its entirety, wow. That is exactly what I have always thought and like Currie I think the stance is adaptable but the hard focus on the bird IS the primary concern. I advocate that for trap the leading edge is the focal point. After much messing with various methods since dabbling in esp the last three outings I have abandoned everything and reverted to my trap method. Focus hard and entirely on the leading edge and let the shot happen. Lets see if it works on partridge next week ?

ps

AW13 thanks for posting that, most interesting read ?

 
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 The way i tend to shoot is to look at a target and pre-decide a mental image of the gap needed as "lead" ,or distance in front of clay.  Strangely, I ,and others, see a "gap" at the clay, not at the barrel or bead, in fact they don`t exist ! it is mostly move mount shoot,with ESP you move and shoot ! but  it also has gun speed and other factors involved. I think it`s difficult to explain ,but (with exceptions) it is a method used by a lot of top end shooters,(no,,,I am not one!) This is especially true of FITASC , as most targets are one chance with 2 cartridges. you have to pre-decide an attack on a single target, with ESP you have a several Pairs to get it right, which may explain why so many times one, or a pair, can be missed ,because you become complacent.

 
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Just bought the Stanbury book online 2nd hand for £4.12.
you wont regret the purchase it is a fabulous book that is as relevant now as when it was written. Be interested in your thoughts when you have read it.

I am now going on amazon for Churchill book ?

 The way i tend to shoot is to look at a target and pre-decide a mental image of the gap needed as "lead" ,or distance in front of clay.  Strangely, I ,and others, see a "gap" at the clay, not at the barrel or bead, in fact they don`t exist ! it is mostly move mount shoot,with ESP you move and shoot ! but  it also has gun speed and other factors involved. I think it`s difficult to explain ,but (with exceptions) it is a method used by a lot of top end shooters,(no,,,I am not one!) This is especially true of FITASC , as most targets are one chance with 2 cartridges. you have to pre-decide an attack on a single target, with ESP you have a several Pairs to get it right, which may explain why so many times one, or a pair, can be missed ,because you become complacent.
this pre decide as you put it is the bit I don't get. If I watch a target before I shoot it and try and work it out I would over analyse it and try to make sure and probably miss. As I now have no interest in comp clays I just push the delay button and then focus hard on the front edge and let it happen. After thirty odd years of trap I have a very reliable gunmount so I can forget about that aspect.

 
Been searching for the Churchill book, can't find one for a reasonable price at the moment

Update - bought one, used paperback for under a fiver inc postage.

looks like I have some reading to do.

Another book I like is The Orvis Wing Shooting Handbook. Has anyone here read it?

 
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F

funny isn't it. In fact stanbury alludes to the fact that many of us have said on here and that is that we all perceive lead differently and 8' to one shooter is 9" to another. I have no idea how anyone has the mental capacity to gauge a given yardage in the heat of the moment.
You see the space, the space is personal to you. To be consistent you need to repeat this on each shot, I find that I can do this best by seeing the space. Swing through how you shoot it IMO is not consistent enough. A minor change in the pace of your swing and you've missed it. You will have good days when it's working but you'll also have bad day's when it's not.

I see the space on small lead pictures in clays, bigger gaps I change to feet but I have no real idea if what I think is 4 feet is actually that. I picture it and repeat it. I try to shoot both pull away and swing through in this way.

 
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