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Hactar

Deactivated guns

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I work with the Air Cadets and want to get a deactivated gun to use as a training aid. This will allow me to go through safe gun handling techniques without requiring any special storage or shotgun certificates.

I'd like to get an under-over with a single trigger to most closely approximate the guns they shoot with but these seem incredibly rare as a deactivated gun.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I could get one without breaking the bank?

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Speak to your local gun shops. I know EJ Churchill sometimes get guns handed in after somebody dies which are near worthless. Then they can be decommissioned.

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If you are only teaching safe gun handling, you could consider one of the 'kids guns' as advertised in the shooting press. They are a replica of the real thing in either O/u or S x S configuration. Maybe a Wanted ad on here or PW could find one ?

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1 hour ago, westley said:

consider one of the 'kids guns' as advertised in the shooting press.

I don't see anything like that, could you point me in the direction of one as I may be looking at the wrong thing.

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10 minutes ago, Hactar said:

I don't see anything like that, could you point me in the direction of one as I may be looking at the wrong thing.

I have just goggled "Toy replica shotgun in UK" and that came up with quite a few choices.

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Just now, westley said:

I have just goggled "Toy replica shotgun in UK" and that came up with quite a few choices.

I just googled IPS and it came up as a sex toy ?

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1 minute ago, billybang said:

I just googled IPS and it came up as a sex toy ?

Er..........batteries included  ?

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18 minutes ago, westley said:

Er..........batteries included  ?

No just lube !

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52 minutes ago, westley said:

I have just goggled "Toy replica shotgun in UK" and that came up with quite a few choices.

I did look at these but they are a bit plastic and, well, toy like. I'd rather have something the cadets could associate with a real gun, even deactivated they are likely to treat it with more respect. I suspect a toy one would be run around with and broken in 10 minutes.

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With due respect , should someone without a shotgun certificate really be handling a shotgun replica or not  and be training novices?????

Surely you have someone local that would give their time for free that actually has a certificate and owns a suitable gun?

I have to question should you really be involved with live firing  and range safety unless you also are supervised by a suitably trained range officer ?

Lots of questions that worry me about the safety and education of children.

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@Salopian you seem to be missing the point. Anyone can get a shotgun certificate so long as the police can't come up with a good reason not to give them one. I am a fully qualified CPSA safety officer but by choice (my partners, not mine) I don't have a certificate.

When I go to ranges I may see 40 people shooting, last time I only saw 1 carrying the gun in the approved CPSA manner, most don't have suitable PPE, one group of three were even shooting with no PPE at all, no glasses, no ear defenders, nothing. Yet they all had shotgun certificates.

Which is better qualified to teach my cadets? Me, who is properly trained and qualified but has no certificate, or Joe the farmer with his certificate and no training? I can tell you for free that the RAF believe it to be me.

Take your "due respect" and put it behind some thought if you don't mind.

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I am not missinmg any point at all.

Read my post correctly where I think that a suitably qualified Range Officer should be supervising Cadets and a sensible licence holding and shotgun owning volunteer would be more suitable to teach the children with the real thing .

Perhaps if you knew what respect was you would have considered your reply without going off on one . 

Incidentally before retiring I was in charge of the Cadet project to introduce the L91  and the servicing of ALL weapons used by Cadets, Schools , TA and Tri services shooting teams. I do not wish this training initiative to be jeapordised by well meaning amateurs.

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3 hours ago, Hactar said:

@Salopian you seem to be missing the point. Anyone can get a shotgun certificate so long as the police can't come up with a good reason not to give them one. I am a fully qualified CPSA safety officer but by choice (my partners, not mine) I don't have a certificate.

When I go to ranges I may see 40 people shooting, last time I only saw 1 carrying the gun in the approved CPSA manner, most don't have suitable PPE, one group of three were even shooting with no PPE at all, no glasses, no ear defenders, nothing. Yet they all had shotgun certificates.

Which is better qualified to teach my cadets? Me, who is properly trained and qualified but has no certificate, or Joe the farmer with his certificate and no training? I can tell you for free that the RAF believe it to be me.

Take your "due respect" and put it behind some thought if you don't mind.

I am sorry BUT I am with Salopian on this one. Having run the Clay Pigeon shooting for some 17 years on ' An Approved Military Range', although ours was a 'Civvy' club, the range next door was used by the Military AND Cadets (of ALL Forces). We had TWO fully Qualified CPSA INSTRUCTORS and we ran several CPSA Safety Officers courses on the site. The Range was a Summer Camp for Cadets all through the Summer. I have witnessed so many incidents of dangerous gun handling, by BOTH Cadets and their 'Instructors', including 1 Cadet 'MISLAYING' A RIFLE' ( which turned up a week later in one of the training areas). We were constantly being told that the Military Instructors were far better trained than we would ever be, if we dared complain about the gun safety (or lack of), we were told that we were the visitors to the Range and if we did not like it...........LEAVE  !  So you see why Salopian voiced his concerns and I would totally agree with his comments.

P.S.

AND if we needed a PPE, we had a 500 yard walk to the loo's  !

Edited by westley

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I don't get it, you are a qualified safety officer but have no certificate, your partners choice....eh. What am I missing here ??

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3 hours ago, ips said:

I don't get it, you are a qualified safety officer but have no certificate, your partners choice....eh. What am I missing here ??

Nothing. There is no requirement for any CPSA qualification that you need a certificate. You don't need to own a shotgun, the military ones aren't even on civilian certificates, they are held in the armory on military paperwork. I would have one, but my other half doesn't want me to, so I don't but that has no impact on my qualifications. How is that so difficult to grasp?

Any gibbon can get a certificate if they can hold a pen and fill in the form, it doesn't however provide any qualifications. 

I'm not interested in teaching them how to shoot, that is a job for a level 1 instructor but teaching them safe gun handling is well within my qualifications and abilities. 

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9 hours ago, ips said:

I don't get it, you are a qualified safety officer but have no certificate, your partners choice....eh. What am I missing here ??

He is missing..Balls?

5 hours ago, Hactar said:

Nothing. There is no requirement for any CPSA qualification that you need a certificate. You don't need to own a shotgun, the military ones aren't even on civilian certificates, they are held in the armory on military paperwork. I would have one, but my other half doesn't want me to, so I don't but that has no impact on my qualifications. How is that so difficult to grasp?

Any gibbon can get a certificate if they can hold a pen and fill in the form, it doesn't however provide any qualifications. 

I'm not interested in teaching them how to shoot, that is a job for a level 1 instructor but teaching them safe gun handling is well within my qualifications and abilities. 

Any Gibbon? so in one fell swoop you have probably offended everyone on the site and this knowledge without trying yourself?

Having a certificate doesn't mean you have to have a gun...get yourself one and some experience instead of waving your CPSA safety course like its the be all of gun safety!

Edited by schmokinn

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I am sorry to say that this post is rapidly descending into oblivion .

I would be the first to encourage volunteer help , but it needs to utilise the volunteer to the best advantage of everyone , Hactar asked a perfectly reasonable question in the beginning but failed to grasp the task.Guns are not as simple as people think ,to be able to get your head around the mechanism and assembly /disassembly is now easy and second nature to us , but cast your mind back to Your very first time?

This is why I advocate asking a licensed volunteer with a live firing gun to explain and train the cadets .

As he rightly points out CPSA do not insist upon Safety Officers having a SGC ! Perhaps because of possible legal issues the CPSA should revue this policy?

Hactar , be careful when referring to us as Gibbons , as it has been found that Gorillas posess 98% of the DNA of Humans , so a Gibbon may be easier to train than some individuals .

 

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I think you are overestimating the task at hand. I'm not trying to teach them mechanisms and they will not be taking them apart or cleaning them or doing anything other that shooting the real thing, the only point in the gun safety I need to teach them is removing and replacing in a slip, using a rack, passing a gun from person to person, and safe loading and unloading. The simple stuff in the shotgun skills course so I can then take them to a range without them waving a gun about.

The only requirement for holding a shotgun certificate is that the person be over 2 years old, and that is only because the referee on the application has to have known the person for two years. Under 10's are regularly issued them (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12840557). I wasn't calling the members of this forum gibbons, just pointing out that the possession of a certificate is NO indication of the ability to train anyone, or even know to keep the loud end pointing away from people. A SGC is not a qualification.

There is nothing wrong with someone having a driving licence without owning a car, they can rent or borrow one when needed. In the same way I have a SO qualification without owning a gun.

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Don't you know anybody with a shotgun who could come along to the cadets meetings? If it was fitted with snapcaps, it would be as 'real' as it's going to get.

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12 hours ago, Les said:

Don't you know anybody with a shotgun who could come along to the cadets meetings? If it was fitted with snapcaps, it would be as 'real' as it's going to get.

The whole point here is for me to be able to take a small group of cadets, perhaps even as few as two per night, and give them good solid instruction with plenty of practice handling the gun. If I have to arrange a third party coming in I will have to instruct 25-30 cadets at once and with one gun they won't get much hands on.

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