Rules / Refs

I was down at Southdown yesterday shooting on my own (billy no mates). One person was shooting in a stand I had a quick look to see what shells I needed. Got my gear ready, asked to see a pair was told no I should have been watching. I told the ref I was getting ready, she would have none of it, I then asked for my card back, she said why, I told her I would wait till someone else shot it which is what I did.

On another stand the scorer was scoring wads, she clearly scored three wads as breaks, another shooter advised her of this.

Stand 2 I smoked the first pair and dropped 1 from remains 6 so scored 7 ex8. Upon collecting my card it said 6 the first clay was missed I advised the scorer that this was hit and she said I should have mentioned it at the time, I said why would I mention it as they were smoked, which was backed up by another shooter whom I did not know.

Is it not about time the CPSA told clubs doing reg comp that the scorers have to call kill / loss.

Seeing a pair from in the cage! If you have to step up into a cage to shoot how can you see properly if you are next from out side the cage if its much lower. 

I have nothing against rules but they have to be consistent, at the moment there is no set standard anywhere and we the paying shooter I feel are not being offered the service we pay for. 

+1!!!!

Refs/trappers/scorers do my head in and it's time they banned them having their phones on them!

IIt is already mandatory for referees to call out losses  but it is optional to call hits under rule 3.08 in booklet  5, so if you don't hear a peep from the ref you can rightly assume you have hit them all according to the rule book.

The rule about seeing a pair is also very badly written, it says  you have the right to see one target from each trap for that stand from a position outside the stand. 

It does say  all competitors should avail themselves of the opportunity to view targets whilst waiting their turn to shoot. The trouble is that It uses the word should not must so it is advisory for best practice rather than mandatory. It also doesn't say that you lose the right to see a pair if you don't avail yourself.

Obviously that's a pedantic view of the rule but refs can be pedantic as well. If you have only just turned up as a shooter finishes then the ref should be understanding,  if you have been stood there 15 mins already then full pedantic mode is acceptable.

But just ask where in the rule book does it say you lose the right to see a pair.

The trouble is unless we pay top money for fully trained referees we are always going to get this and if grounds pay for fully trained refs then the cost of shooting sporting will rise to FITASC levels. 

evoracer said:

+1!!!!

Refs/trappers/scorers do my head in and it's time they banned them having their phones on them!

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​+5

i had to edit this to say they should have them for emergncies/breakdowns but not for facebook,messaging and personal calls while you are waiting to shoot,if supplied with radios leave them in the car.

Knocking referees and scorers is a regular feature on this site. All I will say is that every person who shoots should try refereeing/scoring for at least one day at a registered shoot. It is a difficult task just to maintain concentration for 6 hours. Add to that the attitude of some aggressive, adrenalin - fuelled shooters and you have the recipe for a miserable day. Even if the sun is shining. All of this for fifty quid or so? Try it.

Is it to much to ask for a kill / loss to be called. 

wylye said:

Knocking referees and scorers is a regular feature on this site. All I will say is that every person who shoots should try refereeing/scoring for at least one day at a registered shoot. It is a difficult task just to maintain concentration for 6 hours. Add to that the attitude of some aggressive, adrenalin - fuelled shooters and you have the recipe for a miserable day. Even if the sun is shining. All of this for fifty quid or so? Try it.

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​Totally correct Ian and oddly i have dabbled with the thought of going down the ref route. sadly there is a very small percentage of refs who give the majority a bad name and i do mean a very small percentage haveing come across the odd one myself other then that most are great characters who are more then fair and do a great job  being relatively new to FITASC on more then one occasion they have whispered in my ear  the errors i may have made but can obviously see its a learning curve, i rarely make the same mistake again.    

I have reffed of and on for years. I always call the next shooter to get ready if a large group is present, speeds up the queue, always call loss / killed. It just seems a bit more professional. The shooters know that I know what I am doing so don't mess me about.

Any one can make a mistake, it's the manner its dealt with that matters.

At charity shoots I never take the money always put it back to the cause.

I am always polite to everyone especially scorers.

I know some people try it on especially with chipped birds. It's dead simple if a target is disputed offer the birds again. If a shooter needs to see a pair show them does it matter. 

I agree with Shaun above it is a few. The majority are excellent. 

I can agree with Shaun and Rosso, I used to ref years ago, till I found I was missing chips etc at distance,(fitasc)  so stopped. as Wylye says , a bit thankless in the rain/cold for 50 quid. I have only been to 1/2 dozen registered`s  ,   with no problems. even obviously local school kids seem good!     excellent eyesight !

wylye said:

Knocking referees and scorers is a regular feature on this site. All I will say is that every person who shoots should try refereeing/scoring for at least one day at a registered shoot. It is a difficult task just to maintain concentration for 6 hours. Add to that the attitude of some aggressive, adrenalin - fuelled shooters and you have the recipe for a miserable day. Even if the sun is shining. All of this for fifty quid or so? Try it.

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My OP issues happened between 9.30 and 10.00 am 30 minutes into the shoot. So what would they be like after 6 hours!

wylye said:

Knocking referees and scorers is a regular feature on this site. All I will say is that every person who shoots should try refereeing/scoring for at least one day at a registered shoot. It is a difficult task just to maintain concentration for 6 hours. Add to that the attitude of some aggressive, adrenalin - fuelled shooters and you have the recipe for a miserable day. Even if the sun is shining. All of this for fifty quid or so? Try it.

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​I'm sorry but I pay to play they get paid for pushing a button and putting a little O or X in a box it's not that hard. when the lad scoring me misses the point where I obliterate the last clay to the point where there's nothing left of it and mark it as a miss I think constructive criticism is due!

Rosso said:

Is it to much to ask for a kill / loss to be called. 

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You do the maths 14 squads of 6 shooters on 3 lots of rotation on a 5pairs stand, how long would it be till your peed off with every clay that comes out, personally I ask the squad if it is ok to only call losses, most are happy with this, if not I'll call every kill / loss. 

I must admit that once I was reffing a OT squad at Bisley and I lost concentration for a moment and did not see a target that was shot at so i did not buzz as a miss !, when the squad was finished someone said he missed that !, the other two markers never said a thing !!  ( sh*t happens ) we are human !

Here's some maths.

14 x 6 x 3 = 252 x say average £36 / 100 = £9072.00. 

I think you could afford more scorers. 

The Ref could sing the National Anthem, never mind Kill/Loss....................I still would not hear them. I always make sure that I see 'a pair' BEFORE I put my card in !

I think that some of these posts illustrate my point. They show a total lack of understanding and consideration about the fundamental workings of a clay shoot and the people who work there. But then, as I have said before, a lack of knowledge has never prevented anyone on this site passing an opinion about a subject they know very little about.

Rosso said:

Here's some maths.

14 x 6 x 3 = 252 x say average £36 / 100 = £9072.00. 

I think you could afford more scorers. 

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​How much are clays? How much is the rent? How about advertising? Trap maintenance? Wages for setting up/breaking down? Vehicles/transport? Oh - and don't forget the 20%VAT to pay on every entry. One way to make a small fortune out of clay shooting is to start with a large one. (This is a joke by the way - ask another contributor on this site)

wylye said:

I think that some of these posts illustrate my point. They show a total lack of understanding and consideration about the fundamental workings of a clay shoot and the people who work there. But then, as I have said before, a lack of knowledge has never prevented anyone on this site passing an opinion about a subject they know very little about.

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​When I go into work tomorrow and one of my lads has made a mistake I'll just tell the client they don't have a clue nor an idea how things work shall I or shall I help my team learn from our mistakes?!?!

I think you show a fine example of what we are discussing.